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Permalink Reply by BUGGY (C) on May 3, 2016 at 10:56am

For example see the interplay of resonance between the wood and the air for a violin.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/music/viores.html

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Permalink Reply by Taffy Evans on May 3, 2016 at 8:06pm

nsHi Guy's, just a few observations and comments.

It's amazing how many ways there are to describe tonal qualities of a guitar. Just to show this I went though about ten guitar reviews [out of the hundreds I have saved over the years] and pulled out some of the words used to describe certain qualities of acoustic guitars.

Perfect sound, light, sweet, balanced, snappy warmth, fluid, mellowness, laudable poise, richer sounding, good projection, feisty sound, breathy woodiness, fairly bright, bluesy, heaps of bass, clarity, kind of rich, fairly neutral, low end punch with a hint of mellowness, creamy toned mid and low end.......you get the picture. 

I wonder what words we could use to describe our CBG's........don't go there, I'm only joking.

For me, when amplifying an acoustic instrument on stage I want the guitar to sound as acoustic as possible, and I have only found that when using a good microphone. I was listening to young performers at a local country music talent festival last weekend, and wondered if the sound of the guitars was being judged [I know it wasn't] but the "quacky" sound of the piezio equipped guitars left a lot to be desired....to me....to the performer it's what they are used to and it's a "good sound".....to them.  

Re sound post in a CGB. A violin also has a bass bar as part of its sound system, would one be needed as well as a soundpost?

I have blended a piezo and mag pickup and I find it adds a richer low end to the thin sounding transducer when needed. [there, I've used some of those words]

People have talked about the cost/quality of mag pickups but not about cost/quality of transducer/piezo type pickups. For my full acoustic guitars I use K&K piezo pickups with a preamp, they cost a fortune in comparison, but have good acoustic sound reproduction, "sound great". A packet of ten "no brand" units costs bugger all for a CBG. I'm thinking with such a small vibrating area on a CBG top would a better transducer give a better sound?

Cheers Taff

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Permalink Reply by JL on May 4, 2016 at 12:42am

what words to describe the timbre of a CBG? 

challenge accepted!

I like mine to sound like a hot cup of black coffee with the crumbs/sugar after a doughnut was dunked in it.

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Permalink Reply by Taffy Evans on May 4, 2016 at 3:51pm

JL, didn't you see the words "only Joking"

Taff

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Permalink Reply by JL on May 5, 2016 at 12:37am

absolutely, and responded with tongue firmly planted in cheek !!!

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Permalink Reply by Moritz Voegeli on May 4, 2016 at 4:20am

Taffy, as to your question about bass bar and sound post: As far as I know - I played violin in my youth - the cooperation of f-holes, bass bar, sound post and the bridges cut in a special way are characteristic this instrument, but for a guitar this principle doesn't work because rubbing the strings with a bow brings a lot more energy to the body of the instrument than finger picking. There are various reasons for this setting: 1. the f-holes create a static problem partly resolved by the bass bar and the sound post, 2. stiffening one area of the soundboard lets vibrate other parts stronger as a kind of lever action, and 3. kind of filtering of low (sound post) or high (bass bar) frequencies. The exact positions of these four elements in relation to the others are traditional and vary within a few millimeters.

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Permalink Reply by Taffy Evans on May 4, 2016 at 3:42pm

I agree Moritz, I was thinking that with all the factors that contribute to the sound of a violin, why would somebody pick one "a sound post" and put it in an instrument that is  designed and played completely differently. My thinking is if you have not got a thin resonant back then the post/back may have a dampening effect on the top.

I'm going to put a soundpost in one of my CBG's and see for myself.

Cheers taff 

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Permalink Reply by JL on May 5, 2016 at 12:48am

One big difference between a guitar and a violin/viola/cello/double-bass is the neck's back angle and break angle over the bridge saddle.  On a guitar it's gentle and transfers about 5-10% of the string tension to the soundboard.  On a viol type it's SEVERE transferring  30-50% of the string tension to the soundboard/belly/face of the instrument and would crush/collapse without the sound post. 

and yes the soundpost is offset from the corner of the bridge, not directly under it, so as to not mush the tone.

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Permalink Reply by Moritz Voegeli on May 5, 2016 at 5:11am

Full bullshit Wayfinder, you compare three hundred years of experience in building violins with some lousy years of experience with CBGs. You don't have any respect for nobody and nothing, so you will remain ignorant as you are.

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Permalink Reply by Moritz Voegeli on May 5, 2016 at 8:06am

For over three hundred years violin makers tried hard to build superior instruments to those of Amati, Guarnieri, Stradivari and others, with minimal modifications only and minimal success. I was lucky to listen to some of them on stage. Tell now a serious violin maker «just because 'it's always been done like this' doesn't mean there's not a better way to do it» but don't believe he will take you seriously, to say this in a friendly way...

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Permalink Reply by Jim Morris on May 5, 2016 at 8:37am

Good point Moritz, however, I've had serious violinists and makers who've made faces at some of my instruments - until they play it! I always try to incorporate the lessons of makers from hundreds of years ago as much as possible in a cigar box instrument. I've got several well made violins that have a label inside saying in Italian "made in the style of A Stradivarius" on some of them the words made in the style of are very small print and A Stradivarius is quite prominent. but few people are fooled. Some of these violins sound wonderful and some don't even though they faithfully follow designs of the old masters. There is a degree of snobbery among the violin elite and I delight in seeing their faces when something like one of my cigar box fiddles is grudgingly pronounced "pretty good"  The bottom line for me is to make an instrument that sounds as good acoustically as possible and for me that means using the time honored methods of construction but always experimenting to see "hmmm.. I wonder how this would sound"

Permalink Reply by Moritz Voegeli on May 5, 2016 at 5:35pm

Just prove what you claim... Or tell a hen to experiment with tetraedric or cubic eggs... There are such things as perfect things and the design of the classic violin was perfect from the beginnings. To accept this fact is a matter of admiration and respect. And without respect there is no learning...

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