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Using piezos AND magnetic pickups - the facts!

I hope this is right following such a bold title! If not, at least I / we might learn something else! lol

I guess a lot of us have toyed with using both piezos and magnetic pups in a build, to give a wider choice of tones.

When I was researching this set up for my reso conversion, for the most part the concensus was that it wouldnt work, due to the impedence difference between the two. Now I have little understanding of such things, so in my typically blind optomistic way, went ahead and did it anyway - and it seemed to work (believe me when I say I was elated)!

The tone was definately different between just the magnetic pup, just the piezos, and both together. The is a slight volume difference, but not a huge degree.

So whats the story?

Well, since its way beyond my understandin, I asked an electronics genius / lecturer friend - he suggests that it is NOT working.... at least, not in the way I thought it was.

With both piezo and magnetic switched on, the sound is not a combination of the two. One is shorting out on the other. Im sorry to say I didnt pay attention as to which is which, but lets say for argument its the piezo shorting out on the magnetic - flicking the switch doesnt kick in the pup, but rather opens a short, in essence altering the impedance of the piezo = new tone, without the magnetic being used. Magic!

I still see it as an overall sucess - the aim was to get a variation in tones, which has been achieved, albeit, accidentally :o)

Apologies if you guys already knew this, but it was big news to me (hell, I even have a little understanding now!!) - assuming its correct?

Any thoughts?

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Permalink Reply by Doc Oakroot on August 4, 2009 at 2:08am

When you use both, I think the mag is picking up and the piezo is acting as a capacitor - the same as turning a tone control all the way up. But I have no idea what the cutoff freq of a piezo used as a cap is.

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Permalink Reply by Hip Bone Bellaire on August 4, 2009 at 2:10am

you know After I made a mistake on my first build."Last Night" I was thinking about mixing the same thing or adding a piezo to my lap steel which I got last week.... just to make it sound dirtier... thanks for the info...

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Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on August 4, 2009 at 3:45am

just wire them seperately and use stereo (dual) outputs into an amp/head that can handle two feeds....

just a thought....

the best,

Sam

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Permalink Reply by rodney fruits on August 4, 2009 at 4:34am

good discussion Ben. i use a blend pot and a push-pull volume. seems to work ok, but is there something going on when blending the two that i dont know? .. ANYBODY know this stuff.

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Permalink Reply by Roosterman on August 4, 2009 at 8:13am

Yup, I think the blend is working the same way Rodney - but it works right? Thats the important bit! Whether or not its the piezo working as a capacitor as Doc says, I dont know - thats a bit beyond me, but Im sure by the time I log back on in the morning, someone will have clarified it!!

Im real happy with the sounds I get, but for the 'purist' WS's solution would be easy peasy.

Let us know what you do Craig!

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Permalink Reply by Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) on August 4, 2009 at 10:05am

You guys would be surprised how many different combination of sounds you can get out of a guitar. The following two clips shows one of the most complex pup configs I've ever seen, including mag and piezo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WzGj0XVjSQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaOCojmVe0Q&feature=related

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Permalink Reply by Wil Rogers on August 4, 2009 at 11:00am

Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:

The following two clips shows one of the most complex pup configs I've ever seen, including mag and piezo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WzGj0XVjSQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaOCojmVe0Q&feature=related

That first video is ridiculous is a bad way. Guess they've proved 'the nicer the guitar, the worse the player'. To bad fiber optic fret markers can't teach you to bend all the way up to the note you're attempting. :)

When I worked in the pawnshop, we had a 70 something Les Paul (standard) that was bought by a guy that couldn't play a G chord. Seriously, he just did a black sabbath riff or two on it, paid cash, and threw it in his SUV never to be seen again. It's like he kidnapped it. :(

Somebody should make a 'nicest vs worst guitars on youtube' video. It would be hilarious to see these guitars/talent levels in a comparison video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8CNmEUVDjE

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Permalink Reply by Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) on August 4, 2009 at 12:14pm

"It's like he kidnapped it."

ROFLMAO!

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Permalink Reply by Roosterman on August 5, 2009 at 12:43am

Hey Tiny, can you buy one o those and rip apart, tell me whats inside?? hehe

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Permalink Reply by David L. on September 5, 2009 at 12:57am

Hi,
Sorry I am a month late to this discission (newbie!)
I came across this via another post and just wanted to add that I have now completed 3 CBGs with electric PUPs and piezo disc configuration. I also read it would not work and so for the first one fed the input via a takamine preamp I picked up off ebay but then realised it sounded better when played on the preamp bypass circuit so for my last 2 CBGs have wired a typical telecaster type wiring with a 3 way switch, normal PUP and three piezo discs wired together as one pickup for wiring purposes so the options are electric pup/both/piezos and it works great. It offers 3 distinct tones. I am unable to explain why it works but don't agree that it acts by shorting because both the electric PUP and the piezos both work on a tap test when both are selected.
I think for any more CBGs I make I will include this set up as it is easy to do and I like the mild chorus like effect you get when both are played together.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Werner on September 5, 2009 at 4:21am

Years ago, Guitar Player did an article on J.J.Cale, who at one point had taken an old acoustic, torn the back off, and installed a whole fistfull of pickups and switches.
According to Cale, some rep from a Japanese manufacturer wanted to buy it, but Cale told him to buzz off.....

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Permalink Reply by Roosterman on September 5, 2009 at 5:05am

Yup, im with you there mate - it works so use it!
Like I said in the original post, its beyond me too, but those that do understand reckon it IS a change in impedence of the piezos you are hearing - and therefore your tap test would still produce a sound from both.
Can anyone else clarify this? Id really like to understand it one way or another....

David Lloyd said:

Hi,
Sorry I am a month late to this discission (newbie!)
I came across this via another post and just wanted to add that I have now completed 3 CBGs with electric PUPs and piezo disc configuration. I also read it would not work and so for the first one fed the input via a takamine preamp I picked up off ebay but then realised it sounded better when played on the preamp bypass circuit so for my last 2 CBGs have wired a typical telecaster type wiring with a 3 way switch, normal PUP and three piezo discs wired together as one pickup for wiring purposes so the options are electric pup/both/piezos and it works great. It offers 3 distinct tones. I am unable to explain why it works but don't agree that it acts by shorting because both the electric PUP and the piezos both work on a tap test when both are selected.
I think for any more CBGs I make I will include this set up as it is easy to do and I like the mild chorus like effect you get when both are played together.