Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim Morris on June 11, 2013 at 3:29pm

I think this would be plenty strong! Lot's of folks, myself included, use a scarf joint which is weaker, I think than a lap joint. I always glue "ears" on the sides of my scarf joint. This gives more width to the headstock and also re-enforces the joint. As in most things, tight is good,so make sure the lap joint fits real well.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin (Voodoo Rat) Hoelting on June 11, 2013 at 4:00pm

I have to second Jim's opinion here. What your talking about is transferring all the string tension to compression force on the neck. Caveman engineering talk......compression good. I have done some scarf joints that looked outright delicate with no problems at all. You will be able to break beads on truck tires!

Cool idea too, by the way!

 

Good thoughts

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Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on June 11, 2013 at 4:53pm

A lap joint is definitely a step above a scarf joint. ;-). Structurally. Only reason for a scarf is it's quicker, one cut, large surface areas to glue, and it allows you to angle back your headstock to ensure string tension at the nut for tuning stability. Also the string tension, if you set the scarf angled down, trengthens the joint by compressing it. The way you've drawn your lap, the string tension looks like it would pull it apart; try flipping it over. A lap joint will be a stronger joint, but you then run into the problem of how do you get string break angle over the nut? You'd have to cut down a flat into your headstock, like a Strat...which might cut away part of the lap, unless you make your headstock longer to allow for the flat. You could also solve that by adding a 1/4" thick fretboard atop your neck, and maybe adding one or more string trees. On most commercially scarfed gits, the fretboard is glued atop the scarf joint, hiding the joint and strengthening it at the same time. Not saying don't do it, but do a test one or two with some scrap, including stringing it with one string like a diddly bow, before committing to some potentially expensive neck wood.

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Permalink Reply by ChickenboneJohn on June 11, 2013 at 5:34pm

Unless you can cut that joint with less than a cigarette paper gap between all 3 faces, then it will be weaker than a simple scarf joint. It's a lot easier to draw it than it is cut two pieces of wood to fit together tight like that. There is no virtue in making something more complicated than it needs to be. You'll also have two surfaces which are glued endgrain to endgrain, which is a very weak connection, so that part of the joint will contribute very little to the strength.

Decent glue such as Titebond or trad hide glue is plenty strong enough for a scarf jointed headstock.
If you have little woodworking skills, then that joint you've drawn will end up with gaps, which will be weak and ugly-looking, whereas with a scarf, all you have to do is get to pieces of wood flat and glue them together.. The glueline on a finished joint should be pretty much invisible -most glues don't work well when they are effectively filling the gap-between surfaces, unless you go to stuff like epoxy or polyurethane glues...which really isn't appropriate.

If you have little woodworking skills, don't bother with a glue jointed headstock, cut it from one piece. If you absolutely MUST glue two pieces, then use a scarf joint. My view is DO NOT try what you've drawn, because I think it may end up being a time consuming, frustrating job with a poor result at the end....don't make things harder than they need to be.

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Permalink Reply by Shawn Doyle on June 11, 2013 at 7:02pm

I guess I should elaborate on what I wanted to do.

I wanted to have a shamrock shaped headstock, and I can't do that with a one piece neck. 

 

The actual headstock, where the side leaves would come out, would be probably a couple inches wider than the neck on either side, the way I have it imagined.  And I was hoping to make that out of one piece of wood. 

 

I have Photoshop on my home computer, so I can give a better drawing of what I am picturing when I get home in a couple of hours.

 

FWIW, wood work doesn't intimidate me.  I just haven't done a whole lot of it.  So I am up to trying scarf joints.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Suspect Device on June 11, 2013 at 7:13pm

If you are talking about just adding wings to give your head stock more width, there's no need to do any fancy joinery. As long as the joining edges are flat & square you should be fine with simple, securely glued & clamped butt joints.

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Permalink Reply by Shawn Doyle on June 11, 2013 at 7:16pm

Well, the way I have it planned (maybe be HAD it planned, at this point...lol) was to have a tuning machine on each leaf.  I'd then have two screws or nails to wrap the string around and to the nut.

 

I'd imagine butt joints cannot take that kind of tension.

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Permalink Reply by Suspect Device on June 11, 2013 at 7:24pm

Ahh.. you'd be surprised. I use scarf joints on my necks, so due to the break angle there's really not a lot of upward tension. I also build my head stocks with multiple laminated/butt-jointed wings, I have built more than 75 of these gizmos and have never had one fail or fly apart.

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Permalink Reply by Slowpaw Steve T on June 11, 2013 at 9:00pm

i use Titebond III wood glue, once it's glued it's glued, the only way you'll shift it is with a saw...!

i had a professional Luthier once fix a broken headstock on a Gibson SG - he injected wood glue and clamped it, he reckoned a fixed Gibson headstock was stronger! (-;

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Permalink Reply by Shawn Doyle on June 11, 2013 at 9:13pm

So it would handle the string tension of the design below, if the parts that extend past the neck width are glued on with a butt joint?

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Permalink Reply by Slowpaw Steve T on June 11, 2013 at 10:20pm

yes should do it easily esp. 3 strings (-:

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Permalink Reply by Shawn Doyle on June 11, 2013 at 8:57pm

OK, here is a drawing of what I was hoping to do:

Obviously, the bigger gray dots are the tuning machines.  The smaller ones are the screws or nails I would wind the strings around to bring it to the nut.

This can be tilted on a scarf joint or straight.  I'm OK with either.

What is the best way to go about this?

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