Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dan Sleep on March 31, 2011 at 1:03pm

I don't think it is so much an issue of precision as it is playability. If you are careful when you fret, you really shouldn't have any such thing as "a tad off".

 

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Permalink Reply by colin mcgrath on March 31, 2011 at 2:56pm

Am I correct that you are asking as a player of the fretted instrument? In that case I might agree somewhat with you. I like the space between the frets for more finger room. But, one thing I thought on for a sec last time I was playing is that if the frets are in the wrong place there would be no forgiveness really. Because wouldn't the pressure on the string press it against the fret creating that spot as the note point no matter where ones finger tip is? However this issue has been the reason behind my builds all being fretless, yet still having a true scale length.

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Permalink Reply by ChickenboneJohn on March 31, 2011 at 8:14pm

The question is about building, not playing. The longer the scale the more lattitude you have with your accuracy of fret positioning. On a uke or mandolin which is around half the scale of a conventional guitar, a slight inaccuracy in the fretting will have much more effect on the accuracy of the intonation, and then higher up the fretboard the more critical it gets.  It's just a matter of the mathematics.

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Permalink Reply by colin mcgrath on April 1, 2011 at 4:43am

Okay then, that makes sense. I have no practical opinion on the building aspect yet, no fretwork under my belt.

ChickenboneJohn said:

The question is about building, not playing. The longer the scale the more lattitude you have with your accuracy of fret positioning. On a uke or mandolin which is around half the scale of a conventional guitar, a slight inaccuracy in the fretting will have much more effect on the accuracy of the intonation, and then higher up the fretboard the more critical it gets.  It's just a matter of the mathematics.

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Permalink Reply by Don Thompson on April 1, 2011 at 8:25am

It has been my experience that short scales are more challenging to get tonally correct. Don

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Permalink Reply by Ben on April 1, 2011 at 9:10am

Just in case you wanted more support for the responses above...shorter scale is less forgiving to the ear. I try to be pretty accurate but always breathe easier on longer scales.

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Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on April 1, 2011 at 11:05am

I'm fairly new to this, but logically scale length isn't exactly the issue (although it is an influence). It is simply the distance between any particular fret and the bridge. In other words the precision required to get a fret at the correct position 12" from the bridge on a long scale instrument is not any different to that required on a short scale instrument. The tolerance at 6" will be half that at 12", should you be fretting that near the bridge. Put another way, the tolerance gets tighter as you move toward the bridge whatever the total length of the scale. The only influence that scale length has is to make it more likely to have frets near the bridge on a short scale instrument.

Of course this may just be novice logic. Tell me if I am wrong. 

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Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on April 1, 2011 at 12:39pm

nope, ur dead right.

 

if one of your frets sounds a wee bit out of tune, it is exponentially more likely to be closer to the bridge than nut

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Permalink Reply by Don Thompson on April 1, 2011 at 2:09pm

  It has been my experience that because of the shortened open string length VSL, the raised frequencies, in other words the string vibrating at a faster rate because of it's length seems to make minor flatness or sharpness to a note more pronounced. An upright bass player who slightly flubs a note won't be as noticeable as the first chair violin player who plays a note slightly off pitch. The fundamental frequencies between the two are vast, bass tones are moving at a slower rate but also has some higher tones in the mix. A mandolin has more pure fundamentals therefore more pitch sensitive. Also the human ear detects wrongness more in mid to upper frequencies.

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Permalink Reply by Bluesheart on April 1, 2011 at 2:21pm

Thanks for all the responses. Good points raised I think. I was thinking along the lines of what Chickenbone John wrote. And yes, I guess the real issue is the relative distance between the frets, not just the scale length. But since the shorter scale will have less distance between the frets, any error would be greater on a percentage basis. Best to just get it right, sure, but that is not that easy to do, at least until you have a proper jig.

One of the things I love most about the Nation is how eager everyone is to help and how willing they are to share their hard earned knowledge.

These modest instruments present some interesting engineering challenges. First you have to figure out how to make it work, then you have an opportunity to apply those solutions in an artistic way.

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Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on April 1, 2011 at 9:39pm

Don.

I originally trained as a viola player and I remember one conductor saying that in the past, when playing standards weren't as high, if a double bass player had a difficult passage to play he would just drop a match on the floor and roll it back and forth with his shoe (safety match or a used one presumably). That was all they expected to hear from them anyway.

Bluesheart.

Talking about having a proper jig, I assume you have seen this video on You Tube. It is Daddy Mojo fretting with only standard tools (except for the saw). Better to make a jig, but I must admit I found this interesting as a starting point. Worth watching again for his relaxed delivery.

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