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Let's Explore Paper Mache Sound Boxes...

Hi All.

Back in 1862, the renowned Spanish luthier Antonio Torres Jurado ("Torres") built an experimental paper mache guitar to prove that it is the top (soundboard), and not the back and sides of the guitar that gave the instrument its sound. Since that time, several other folks have built them. I have even used paper mache (and chicken wire) as a kid to build a dinosaur and a moose head for an art class, and more recently a couple of Halloween masks. It seems like all I need is a guitar head, neck, and a soundboard, and the rest of the sound box can be made of either cardboard and paper mache, or perhaps chicken wire and paper mache.

There remains some doubt as to whether paper mache sound boxes can project sound as well as wooden boxes, so if they turn out to make poor acoustic instruments (volume wise), we should still be able to electrify them with a piezo or magnetic pickup or two. We also can try building one with a resonator cone to see if that could improve sound projection.

If you think about it, paper mache offers so many design shape possibilities that it seems like a natural choice for inventive instrument builders like those who participate in this website.

I can already foresee Steam Punk Paper Mache guitars.

[Photo from Wikipedia]

So, I'll begin my research and what useful information I find, I'll post it here. If you have any additional information, comments or ideas, let's hear them. At some point in the (fairly) near future, I will attempt to build one, and hopefully a few other folks will build their own and we can compare results. With a few generations of paper mache builds, we may see such things as fiber glass coated paper mache or some other innovations that could yield a new building technology for home made instruments.

I.) Information on the Original Paper Mache Guitar Built by Antonio Torres Jurado ("Torres")

1.) From a guitar history web site...

Up until this point the instrument (early Spanish guitars) were small and narrow. Antonio de Torres (1817 - 1892) worked with the design and construction of the guitar. He increased the size and experimented with anything that would improve the sound, and was especially interested in volume. He was the first maker to use "fan" bracing underneath the top. He once built a Guitar with a spruce top and paper mache back and sides to prove his theory that it was the top that produced most of the volume. He was the father of the modern guitar.

2.) From a Luthier's forum:

Post subject: Torres Cardboard (AKA "paper mache") Guitar

The sound box is actually made from a material more like a thick poster board or for those familiar with it, matte board or letramax. I saw this guitar when it was there in 1991 with an exhibit that was at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It has always been of interest to luthiers as it was thought to be an illustration of the lack of importance of the back and rims regarding guitar sound.

The soundboard is made with two pieces of spruce and in it's interior it has two harmonic bars with six lateral reinforcements on the sides of the mouth (sound hole) and one "pitch bar?". The range consists of seven longitudinal rods, but does not have the two typical Torres "barraje" (frame or bracing?), but between each of the seven is a little (one) that unites them. It is a truly unprecedented "barraje" in the work of the Maestro.

The bottom is internally reinforced by three cross bars and two longitudinal, (which are) much wider and higher than normal, with cedar. The "aros" (rings or hoops? - sorry) have reinforcements along its entire length.

Romanillos states it is the thinnest Torres soundboard in existence, less than 1mm at the edges. That is veneer like. It's hardly believable Torres made it so thin in the first place.

You'll need to join the web site for more details. I'll do that on another day.

II.) Information on Modern Implementations of Paper Mache Guitars

A.) More recently (1986) a guy called John Hunt made a "Papier Mache, Chicken Wire Home Made Guitar" and a video of him playing it is on Youtube (which I can't see from China). Here is this link.

This video was reviewed for me by Oily "Strat-O'-Nine-Tales" Fool, who wrote:

It's a good video. The guitar sounds pretty good, it has a warm tone, and the song is a jPiedmont blues with good lyrics. Can't see his amp in the pic, but he's playing it fingerstyle, no slide, and lightly amplified. The guitar is a 6-string jazzbox size and shape, with a Venetian cutaway, f-holes (which allow you to see how thick the papier-mache' is - which looks to be about 1/2 inch thick), trapeze tailpiece, Tune-O-Matic-style roller bridge, no pickguard, SSH pickup configuration, and what looks like a commercially-made regular six string neck with a shallow carved heel.The bridge is angled to address compensation / intonation issues, probably, and looks to be pressing down into the top so that it bows some.The papier-mache' itself looks like old newspaper, with perhaps a greenish tinge to it from the glue / ink?. The entire guitar body, top and sides (and presumably, back), are papier-mache'.

I'd say this one sounds good enough to try in this amplified config. Don't know how it would sound just acoustic.

The original paper mache guitar built by Torres used a spruce sound board as I recall, and it had internal bracing under the sound board, as well as some bracing in the back. If John Hunt's bridge is sinking down into the top, and it is a wooden sound board, then it likely needs additional bracing around (under) the bridge. If his sound board is paper mache, all I can say is he's doing great to get that far with it. The idea of a strong sound board made of paper mache sounds unlikely unless it also includes internal bracing.

I think I'd prefer a more traditional wooden sound board, but if paper mache can be made to work as a sound board, then great. And why stop there? Maybe a chicken wire neck and head assembly coated liberally with paper mache and perhaps some internal wooden support. Maybe bamboo skewers for frets. Any ideas for tuners? I'd guess nylon strings would be best.

Well that's all I have for now.

-Rand.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on September 19, 2011 at 6:46am

Could make an interesting build challenge, see what people come up with for alternative materials.

Dont forget ceramics! At minimum perhaps theres some ideas here for your paper mache project. It should work, use waterproof glue......

More here and here. Theres also a bunch of electric guitar stuff in ceramics like this and theres many more, google it.

I was thinking of a guitar to parody the Seasick Steve "This is a piece of shit guitar" schtick, if you get my drift. But decided the idea stank......

As far as the John Hunt Paper Mache guitar goes, that guy could make anything sound good! Kids toy guitar, home made guitar, doesnt matter, he is one of those truly entertaining guys who can coax a tune out of a paper bag!

Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 19, 2011 at 8:00am

Guys,

Did some Hunting about John, and found this:

"This is John's papier mache semi acoustic guitar. He made it in 1986 out of chicken wire, glue and copies of The Melody Maker. It's another Frankenstein guitar. The neck and 2 pick ups are from a dead Vox Marauder. Tuners are from a dead Hofner Galaxy. 3rd pick up is from a dead Ampeg. The bridge is from a dead Jedson and the tailpiece is a Mystery"

http://www.johnhunt.org/images/mache.gif

The pic gives a full on frontal view that you don't quite get from the vid.

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on September 19, 2011 at 8:20am

Full frontal view:

Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 19, 2011 at 9:18am

Gents,

More info on the Torres, from various discussion pages:

http://www.delcamp.us/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29408

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f...

http://www.guitarists.net/lessons/view.php?id=158. ( also contains info on an experimental Taylor made from an old oak pallet)

http://www.artpushers.com/NRG/rotten%20guitars%20paper%20mache.html

Detailed posts and pics of a Torres replica build:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=17618

Aaaaand...loads of detail on John Hunt's papier mache build:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/arts-ents/music-features/how-to-make-...

Permalink Reply by Rand Moore on September 19, 2011 at 1:07pm

Hi All,

What I get out of reading these threads is that what we picture in our minds when we think of paper mache is not the same thing as was likely used to build the Torres "paper mache" guitar. That guitar was built with a dense cardboard material (described as being like poster board, matte board, or letramax) as the base material (perhaps substituting for the chicken wire I used as a kid to add support to my paper mache creations), additionally, paper at that time was cloth rag based rather than wood pulp based paper that became popular in the early 1900s.So, I think it's okay to consider using cotton or linen cloth strips as an alternate to paper strips in building their sound boxes. One experimental luthier describe his best effort: "One of the best ones was a Gaudi-esque confection of cheesecloth impregnated with a mixture of paper pulp, fibers and hide glue, draped over balloons that formed the sound cavities... It made an AMAZINGLY strong/light resonant shell." So, maybe there is a use for all that saw dust we have been generating -- mix it in with your "paper mache paste". Wonder if different kinds of glues used instead of wall paper paste would make for a better resonating chamber. So much to experiment with.

So, I'm thinking to speed up the testing of ideas (prototype paper mache sound boxes) we can use a box tester like Chuck Dubman's diddley-bow cigar box sound tester. Here's a couple photos...

Maybe I'll pick up some poster board today and see how easy it is to build some box without chicken wire (as the last time I looked for it in Shenzhen -- to build a paper mache pinata -- I couldn't find a source). -Rand.

Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 19, 2011 at 7:21pm

Gents,

Page 158 of this example PDF shows Torres' 1859 soundboard fan bracing system:

http://www.lucawaldner.com/dwnl/example.pdf

Also, sorry about not posting the pic inline; I was posting from my iPad, and the pull down bar above that includes the links / opics / vids widget doesn't show up like it does on a Windows machine.

Rand,

Instead of chicken wire, why not try the balloon experiment, even if you use just newspaper / cloth rags and watered down craft glue? You blow one up big enough, and you could get two half shells out of it, about the same size as a cigar box or even a small lute or mandolin; given the right balloon, you might even get a "pre-formed" neck channel out of it. Then you put one of your 2mm soundboards on it. You might find, as John Hunt suggested in his papier mache' build interview, that you have to put some sound post(s) or other bracing in it.

I remember doing this balloon papier mache' method in elementary school in Houston, Texas in the late 60's, making both face masks and pinatas this way. Hadn't thought about it since then! Wish I'd thought about or known about making a guitar body with this method at the time.

It's essentially the same thing Ovation does with their Lyrachord bowls, except they pour it into a mold. I even saw somewhere a papier mache' link (I think it was for 3D sculptures) that suggested using a balloon to make a papier mache' mold, then using that to make a clay or fiberglass mold, that could then be used to make a bronze sculpture...you get the idea.

Dang! Yet another idea to try out. But it would be waaay faster than finger jointing and gluing plywood...hmmmm.

Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 19, 2011 at 7:27pm

Rand,

Another thought if you can't find chicken wire: can you locate / source finely split bamboo? I would hope this is readily available in China...You could fairly quickly make a bent bamboo frame to drape your poster board over...

Permalink Reply by Seaman Jay on September 19, 2011 at 9:50pm

you could as well employ this technique.

If you leave the structure (keel and bulkheads) inside for additional strength - you'll have to do some cutaways in the "bulkheads", it doesn't matter if you use it only as a molding form/skeleton.

Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 19, 2011 at 10:05pm

Rafal,

Wish we could have seen this yesterday - it was International Talk Like A Pirate Day, arrrrr!

But it's a good idea, nonetheless.

Permalink Reply by MichaelS Country Boy Guitars on September 20, 2011 at 12:00am

Great idea, you could also make a form out of foam and lay the paper mache over it. Hmm, got me thinking now. If the body is made solid and a nice deep size I don't see why it couldn't sound as good as some of the better CBG box's that get turned over to use the plywood back. Can't wait to see wait you guys come up with.

Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 20, 2011 at 1:57am

Michael,

Yeah, it's given me a radical idea for my Build #3. I have a buddy who has always wanted a Les Paul Custom, and has an upcoming 40th birthday. I may give him a papier mache' one >:-E

Rafal,

I just noticed soemthing on your ship model frame: 16 potential soundboards ;-)

Permalink Reply by Seaman Jay on September 20, 2011 at 4:26am

Michael,

it's maybe not an entirely sane idea, but - actually - one could glue the paper mache "shell" using wood glue, then "etch off" the styrofoam using nitro solvent (acetone?). The "liquidified" foam will form a semi-hard polistyrene shell inside the paper mache form.