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No Rules: Right, I get it already.

We can all agree that the no rules attitude around here is the best thing we've got going. It's our battle cry. It's what we're all about.

Even so, if someone asks a pointed question about one method or technique versus another and prompts some very thoughtful discussion about the pros and cons of each technique, my guess is that this person is looking for some honest opinion and experience from the rest of us. I'm pretty sure that this person is not looking for the knee-jerk, "Hey, man! No rules! Do whatever you want!" response.

Just saying.

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Permalink Reply by Bob Harrison on December 13, 2010 at 12:55am

Josh,

Here's your opportunity to give the pros and cons of that deep question.

My deep thoughts are, it makes no never mind to me if a craft-person uses a drawknife or a copy carver to rough in a neck or rifle stock.

Or a savvy builder has their custom designed necks or other parts made for them in Asia or elsewhere. At the end of the day it’s the end product that counts most to me and can safely say for most end users as well.

After 40 plus, plus years of using hand tools I have a reasonable command of hand tools. But to others it’s a big deal as to what level hand tools are used or where their parts come from, when I was a young buck starting out it was to me as well.

My motto has been for a long time “ I let machines do what machines do best and I let hands do what they do best”. If a person can buy a pre made neck at a good price and they like it, go for it.

All that being said it goes back what I said earlier. “Grasshopper follow your heart“.

Cheers
Bob

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Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on December 13, 2010 at 2:53am

Sure, and you point out that we should propose person experience and that is absolute. On that tho, I do think that having sooooo many active Citizens here on the Nation, its easy to give opinions, opposing opinions, and directives that I think we (collectively) temper ourselves in that we don't want to stiefel any creativity on the new builders part. That's my take on it. 'course then again, I could be mistaken.

"I thought I was wrong once, but I was just mistaken."

-WY

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Permalink Reply by Dan Sleep on December 13, 2010 at 3:07am

I think the point Josh is trying to make is that when a new person comes in here and has questions, and they get answers that are, "sure, do whatever you want", or "there are no rules", it doesn't help them all that much. I think they are looking for some guidance or suggestions to help get them started. It is kind of like trying to learn a new game, only to have all the players tell you there are no rules. Their reaction is, "how am I supposed to play the game when I don't know what the rules are?"

When I reply to these types of posts, I try to tell folks how I do it, and make sure they know that there are other ways and that mine is not the only way.

The lack of rules can be daunting, and some folks just need some suggestions to get them started.

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Permalink Reply by Shawn on December 13, 2010 at 4:28am

The no rules thing is great for the look of the build but there is one rule we all have to live by no matter what and that is scale length nut to bridge. As for telling new builders " no rules" is just lazy. I always try to remember how I felt on my first build when answering. It was overwelming to say the least. I was wowed by the fact some one could turn a simple cigar box into a working guitar. I remember I had just built a hard body electric at a school for guitar building so I had a leg up on most and I was still in wonder. I hear you and ask you all to remember what your first build felt like the good and the bad.

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Permalink Reply by Bob Harrison on December 13, 2010 at 6:19am

Scotty Said,

“What say you, fellow builders, about pre-made necks? A pre-made neck saved my latest build, but I ordinarily wouldn't rely on them because it feels less creative to not carve my own necks. Anyone else got an opinion.”

To the question “ Anyone else got an opinion.” On the above paragraph . Follow your heart no rule on weather a purchased neck or not is used.

There are a lot of basic rules on building or repairing anything, I have spent the last 40 years learning the rules. I tried to address only the thought of that paragraph. As far as I know, there is not a rule on buying or using a pre made neck on a build.

Cheers

Bob

Dan "Iggy" Sleep said:

I think the point Josh is trying to make is that when a new person comes in here and has questions, and they get answers that are, "sure, do whatever you want", or "there are no rules", it doesn't help them all that much. I think they are looking for some guidance or suggestions to help get them started. It is kind of like trying to learn a new game, only to have all the players tell you there are no rules. Their reaction is, "how am I supposed to play the game when I don't know what the rules are?"

When I reply to these types of posts, I try to tell folks how I do it, and make sure they know that there are other ways and that mine is not the only way.

The lack of rules can be daunting, and some folks just need some suggestions to get them started.

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Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on December 13, 2010 at 7:03am

Josh,

"No Rules" mantra doesn't change the laws of physics.... the octave is 1/2 the scale length...PERIOD.

Beyond that new builders can always benefit from an experienced builder's opinions... even if later on they decide to go a different way. What cracks me up is when a builder with 3 builds slams the opinion of a salty veteran, just because the veteran does something in a way that isn't conventional or obvious at first glance.

Finally... joke....joke.... "what do red Mustang coupes, noses and opinions have in common?" answer... "Everbody has one."

and that's my opinion....

the best,

Wichita Sam

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Permalink Reply by Mister Scott on December 13, 2010 at 7:11am

Wichita Sam said:

Finally... joke....joke.... "what do red Mustang coupes, noses and opinions have in common?" answer... "Everbody has one."

I got one, too... More of a quote actually.

"Rule Number One: There are no rules! Rule Number Two: No outside food."

--MIck Jagger, the Simpsons

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Permalink Reply by Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) on December 13, 2010 at 9:07am

Heh, you'll note that I speak with authority on any of the subjects I choose to add my opinion to, but then follow that up immediately with the imperative: Don't listen to a damned thing I say. Go out and try this stuff for yourself.

Every time I start getting the feeling that i know all there is to know, I just go through the photo albums of the new guys here at the nation. I always find at least one or two new things that I've never seen before or even conceived of on my own that totally blow me away with their sheer brilliance. It's a very good way to stay humble.

If we're getting back to purchased versus carved necks, here's my final take on the whole thing:

Be your own man (or woman) and do whatever it is that seems best to you. My point of view comes from someone who concentrates on making high end custom guitars for serious players. If I want to claim that I can provide something that most other people can't, I've got to be able to back it up. If I used premade necks then my claim (as well as the prices that I charge for a custom guitar) would be rendered foolish.

From an advice standpoint, I submit that if you want to make the kind of guitars that I make and provide the same kind of claims/promises that I provide to my customers, then you better damn well be able to carve out a neck by hand and that neck better be able to smoke any CNC'd hunk of wood that you can find anywhere. In other words, if you want to make guitars the way I make them, then this is what you'd better do.

For all the people who have no interest in my way of doing things (which is perfectly fine and valid - there is no reason at all that I should be looked at as the model for How Things Should be Done), my position is most likely over kill.

I take all this stuff very personally. Every guitar that I make is a physical rebuke against the mass produced, over priced hunks of wood being churned out in (insert name of mega marketing corporation here) factories every day.

Some of the more sane people around here just want to make and play a friggin' guitar.

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Permalink Reply by Shawn on December 13, 2010 at 12:50pm

Well said Josh sometimes it takes newbies to show old dogs new tricks.

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Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on December 13, 2010 at 2:10pm

I simply look at "No Rules" as "No Limitations".

Working within and beyond the conventional standard approaches.

Do what you want. Wander where you desire.

Certainly when breaking rules, you will be faced with the consequences of your actions.

If you can face adversity with a smile, you are bound to break through into some uncharted territory and walk down that "road less traveled" by yourself.

It is basically facing the Kobayashi Maru, if you know what I mean. LOL

I teach, but essentially I don't want my students to follow. I follow my teachers, but essentially I don't expect them to lead.

A good teacher puts the student out in front. He points the way. He does not shield them from making their own mistakes, but helps them to learn from them.

Answer questions to the best of your ability, but encourage people to seek things greater than yourself.

Enjoy the struggle my brothers.