Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jess on September 4, 2010 at 4:15pm

Very understandable . . . give us more. Thanks.

Fitzhugh said:

Here's a few quick-start suggestions, you might be past this, or might want simpler, let me know if you do.

TUNING YOUR GUITAR:

Before anything else, tune you guitar. Assuming it is tuned the way I expect, you'll hold the lowest (called 3rd) string down at the 7th fret and tune the middle (2nd) string so it is the same pitch. You'll hear "beats" when they're close but not in tune. Get it as close as you reasonably can, it makes a difference. I find it easier to tune the string up to the correct pitch instead of tuning down, even if I have to drop it down below the correct pitch to do so.
Next, fret the middle, 2nd, string at the 5th fret and tune the high (1st) string so that it is the same. If done correctly, it is now the same note as the 1st (lowest) string, only an octave higher. Verify this by fretting the 1st string at the 12th fret (aside: the 12th fret, which again is an octave higher than open, is right at the mid point in the string - file that away somewhere where it competes with forgotten phone numbers).

Check again by strumming all open a few times. Does it sound OK? If not, repeat. You can also find videos on youtube to tune to by searching something like "how tune 3 string cbg", but they might tune to a pitch that doesn't work well with your guitar's set of strings. The builder will probably have told you what tunings will work with the strings on it now.

PLAYING SOME MUSIC:
As for playing music, first just try playing something that will sound vaguely familiar, since these are chords used together in so many many songs. It's called a I-IV-V chord progression. I'll come back to what that means shortly, but for now you're going to play and not worry about meaning. I do need a way to tell you what to play, though, so...

I (roman numeral there, not letter) means play all strings open, left hand does nothing but look cool and hold up neck
IV means left hand frets all strings at 5th fret (yes, "four" is at "fifth" fret - again, will come back).
V means left hand frets all strings at 7th fret


1) Strum the open strings a few times, trying to play something vaguely in rythm. That's the I (one) chord (again, will explain that below)
2) Strum all the strings fretted on the 5th fret (use finger or slide). That's the IV chord
3) Move up two frets and strum all strings fretted on the 7th fret. That's the V chord

Now combine these in various combinations.

Each roman numeral represents one measure here, which means strum that chord four times in a row, so
IV
means fret all on 5th fret and go "Strum strum strum strum"

Try the following:
I, IV, V, V and repeat
Or
I, IV, V, IV
Or
I, I, IV, V
and so on.

BASIC 12 BAR BLUES CHORD PROGRESSION:

Once the above feels right, try a simple 12 bar blues progression (bar here is just another name for measure):

I, I, I, I

IV, IV, I, I

V, IV, I, I

Remember, each individual roman numeral represents one measure, and while measures can be made up of different numbers of beats, and the basic beat used can have different values, the most common one is 4/4, where there are four beats per measure. So, in tab format, the above would look like:



I I I I
|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|
|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|
|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|


IV IV I I
|-5--5--5--5-|-5--5--5--5-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|
|-5--5--5--5-|-5--5--5--5-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|
|-5--5--5--5-|-5--5--5--5-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|


V IV I I
|-7--7--7--7-|-5--5--5--5-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|
|-7--7--7--7-|-5--5--5--5-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|
|-7--7--7--7-|-5--5--5--5-|-0--0--0--0-|-0--0--0--0-|

Google "how to read tablature" if you need help reading the above, or just ask, I'll be happy to explain. If you google it, though, remember that the explanation probably ues normal 6 string tab in the examples. The concept is the same, just fewer strings AND the strings are tuned differently.

Notice I haven't used any note names here. That is because the interval between notes is often more useful to work with than the notes themselves. You can play the same progressions above and they'll work regardless of what key your guitar is tuned to - in other words, regardless of whether your guitar is tuned AEA, DAD or GDG, etc.

The I IV V progressions in each of the 12 keys are:

A, D, E
Bb, Eb, F
B, E, F#
C, F, G
Db, Gb, Ab
D, G, A
Eb, Ab, Bb
E, A , B
F, Bb, C
F#, B, C#
G, C, D
Ab, Db, Eb

(cut & pasted out of laziness from http://www.zebrakeys.com/lessons/beginner/chords/?id=10)

So, if you're playing a guitar tuned AEA your I IV V chords are A, D, E:

And 12 bar blues in A would be:
A A A A
D D A A
E D A A

... and so on. Again, the note names kinda matter less than the intervals. To play blues chord progressions you need to know what key the others are playing in, and then you just play the notes.

If you are playing 12 bar blues in B, for example, you could just move all three chords up a couple frets each, so that you are playing the I on the second fret, the IV on the 7th fret and the V on the 9th fret, all still played with barre chords.

You can do a lot with these barre chords, but you'll want to learn other chords. Just like with barre chords, how you can play the same "shape" up and down the neck to make different chords of the same type, you can learn other shapes and move them up and down the neck. Probably the three most important to learn would be Major, Minor and 7th. I'll try and write up about those too if you like. Please tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree here, if you need something more complex or simpler.

Permalink Reply by Jason Hitesman on September 5, 2010 at 6:43pm

Jess - sorry I didn't respond to your comment on my post. To be honest, while I can handle note names when talking about sheet music and my horn - I have no clue what actual notes I'm playing on a guitar yet. If I sit and think about it long enough I can figure it out...but it takes some work for me at this point. So I'm not sure which F you're talking about so I'm not sure how to reply ;) Hopefully someone a little better at music theory and guitar both can help more than I can.

Fitzhugh said:

You can do a lot with these barre chords, but you'll want to learn other chords. Just like with barre chords, how you can play the same "shape" up and down the neck to make different chords of the same type, you can learn other shapes and move them up and down the neck. Probably the three most important to learn would be Major, Minor and 7th. I'll try and write up about those too if you like. Please tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree here, if you need something more complex or simpler.

By all means PLEASE keep going! That's the kind of info I've been looking for...it's nothing I haven't heard before - but for some reason the way you just described it finally makes sense and I'd love to hear you keep going with more.

Just spent the weekend at a friends studio listening him and his friends jam - those who tried it had a blast with my CBG. (Though it did feedback a bit much on a real amp so it couldn't really hold it's own against the rest of the band. ) And I had a blast hearing the guitar I built be played by someone who's skill level is higher than "Row row row your boat" :)

Permalink Reply by Outhouse Instruments on September 6, 2010 at 12:35am

Yall are makin' this harder than it really is. Yes this is all good info and music theory, but to a beginner, the point is to get them playing!

Learn these 3 chords. G - open , no strings fretted. A- all 3 strings fretted at the 2nd fret D-top string and bottom stgring fretted at the 2nd fret. middle string open. Now simply strum to get music. There are hundreds of songs that can be played with these 3 songs. Shoot, half of the songs written before 1950 were probably these 3. Google is yer friend ....., but so am I . Here's a link ... Swing low,sweet chariot ... as an example. These chords came from Jareds chord chart ( VERY FIRST POST). After a few days of playing like this, add the C chord, a few days later, E, etc, etc. Matt - Like I said, IMHO, the point is to get them making music ..... I've even done this in a crowd at a fest with a beginner, and had them playing "church in the wildwood" in 5 minutes.

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on September 6, 2010 at 3:02am

Matt, I'm with you. The point is to get the beginner playing. What you offer and simple barre chords in open tuning is enough to play THOUSANDS OF SONGS. People with instrument training are already grounded in music theory, but music theory is not needed of become a very competent player. To become a player, you gotta play. To play, you gotta want to play. To want to play, it has to be fun. I can tell you from experience playing scales and learning theory is not fun. PLAYING SONGS IS FUN. Ennough talk, I got a new song I'm learnin'. Now that's fun........ the best, Wichita Sam
Matt Towe said:

Yall are makin' this harder than it really is.

Yes this is all good info and music theory, but to a beginner, the point is to get them playing!

Learn these 3 chords.

G - open , no strings fretted.
A- all 3 strings fretted at the 2nd fret
D-top string and bottom stgring fretted at the 2nd fret. middle string open.

Now simply strum to get music.

There are hundreds of songs that can be played with these 3 songs. Shoot, half of the songs written before 1950 were probably these 3.

Google is yer friend ....., but so am I . Here's a link ... Swing low,sweet chariot ... as an example.


These chords came from Jareds chord chart ( VERY FIRST POST).
After a few days of playing like this, add the C chord, a few days later, E, etc, etc.

Matt - Like I said, IMHO, the point is to get them making music ..... I've even done this in a crowd at a fest with a beginner, and had them playing "church in the wildwood" in 5 minutes.

Permalink Reply by Jason Hitesman on September 6, 2010 at 6:18am

Wichita Sam said:

Matt,

I'm with you. The point is to get the beginner playing. What you offer and simple barre chords in open tuning is enough to play THOUSANDS OF SONGS. People with instrument training are already grounded in music theory, but music theory is not needed of become a very competent player. To become a player, you gotta play. To play, you gotta want to play. To want to play, it has to be fun. I can tell you from experience playing scales and learning theory is not fun. PLAYING SONGS IS FUN.

Well, I am enjoying playing and am trying to learn to play more and learn more ways to play. With my background with instruments where you only get one note at a time the idea of chords is extremely foreign and a big stumbling block. That and just the basic mechanics of how to fret, strum or pick and get a tone that I'm happy with. The mechanics I'm starting to get - watching experienced guitarists and researching how to play guitar has helped with that. But I still have a hard time taking something like Swing Low link Matt posted and doing something musical with it.

My instinct is to try and pick out a melody on one string since it's more like what I'm used to. I also actually have a lot of fun practicing scales. It gives me a simple way to focus on tone and technique with something very simple that I know what it should sound like. Of course it's also fun to just rif on the scales bouncing from note to note doing some simple solo type of stuff.

Even though I played Trumpet for many years, studied piano a few times, and even studied music theory - when I see something like tabs or chord notation I'm at a loss.

Take Matt's example. I know what Swing low is supposed to sound like. I can whistle it. Given enough time I could pick out the melody on one string or on a keyboard. But when I take the chords and try to play the song even knowing just the three simple chords It just doesn't sound right to me and I still seem to be missing something. i suspect that what i'm missing is that I'm still thinking as a "solo" instrument and wanting to play the melody - but on these simple songs the idea is for the vocals to be the melody and the guitar is more of a supporting role.

So in a way I'm trying to unlearn some of what I knew and break old habits. Which is never easy.

I wonder. Would someone who's more experienced be willing to try making a simple video of something like Swing Low based on the chord progression in that link? Having the explanation, the "sheet music", and a video combined could really help some of us I suspect. When I was learning the horn many times I'd struggle to get something - reading the music in front of me I could hear in my head what a part should sound like - but I just couldn't get it. Until I heard someone else play it and usually that would be the missing piece that brought it all together for me.

(Just in case I'm not coming across the way I intend. I want to be clear that I'm really enjoying every post in this thread and finding them all very helpful. I'm not trying to be critical of anyones attempts to help or their various approaches. Just trying to share my own experiences as a beginner and give feedback on what is and isn't helping me in hopes that it will also help someone else!)

Permalink Reply by Eric Johnson on September 6, 2010 at 7:12am

Thanks to all for posting this great info. One further question, I built a 4 string CBG, not sure why exactly, just did, probably because I am a hack/bad 6 string player, but am years out of practice. I also play bass, better then I could ever play a 6 string, but not a virtuoso by any stretch of the imagination.

It seems there is a lot more stuff out there aimed at learning 3 string playing and such. Am thinking I have a few options: - build another CBG and make it a 3 string
- only put 3 strings on my 4 string
- or add the 4th string so it either duplicates or works well with the DAD or other common 3 string open tunings.

Building another CBG is probably last on the list simply because it took me several months to complete my first build.

If I were to only put 3 strings on it, wonder which string to leave off, the top or the bottom. Leaving the top off might make it easier for slide or fretting?

Thanks, Eric

Permalink Reply by Fitzhugh on September 6, 2010 at 9:45am

If it isn't fun, something is wrong, Matt and Sam sure have that right.

There is a great need for more of this stuff, not less. I wrote my post with the very point Matt brings up in mind the whole time: Am I writing too much here? Not enough? So I just wrote what I would have found helpful - we learn different ways, after all.

Eric, some quick thoughts: assuming you decide to change it to 3 strings for now, I'd suggest leaving off the lowest string if you leave off any. Better yet, you could carve a new nut and bridge that have 3 slots, ignore one tuner and you have a three string. One note: maybe I misunderstood you, but I usually hear the high string referred to as "top" and the low string as "bottom." Just think in terms of pitch, or how the neck lays out when you rotate it up from a playing position to look at the fretboard.


Thanks

Permalink Reply by Jared King on September 6, 2010 at 10:48am

I greatly appreciated what you wrote. I didn't think it was too much. I whole-heartedly disagree with whoever said you were making it too complicated. You are 100% right, we all learn in our own ways, and yours doesn't happen to be theirs. Just because it's not theirs doesn't make it wrong.

Permalink Reply by Outhouse Instruments on September 6, 2010 at 11:49am

Eric Johnson said:

It seems there is a lot more stuff out there aimed at learning 3 string playing and such. Am thinking I have a few options: - build another CBG and make it a 3 string - only put 3 strings on my 4 string
- or add the 4th string so it either duplicates or works well with the DAD or other common 3 string open tunings.

Building another CBG is probably last on the list simply because it took me several months to complete my first build.

If I were to only put 3 strings on it, wonder which string to leave off, the top or the bottom. Leaving the top off might make it easier for slide or fretting?

Thanks, Eric

This is simple also. It can be done simply one of 2 ways.
1- bottom 4 strings of a 6 string. Tune dgbe and just fret the bottom 4 notes of a chord.
2-Baritone ukulele. 4 strings. Tuned dgbe ( wait a minute!) search for baritone uke chord charts. Or go to Alligator Boogaloo and look at their baritone uke chart.

Ok, now the "wait a minute" .... their are the same.

But it's simple.

And to Rick Stepina: You're probably right in the one note thinking .... unless you're playing lead, think rhythm .


Matt

btw- to all, this is a great discussion!

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on September 7, 2010 at 2:14am

Eric,

Go ahead and build that 3-string CBG.... 3 and 4 stringers are very different beasts..... you should enjoy messing around with both. Eventually, I would guess one or the other will start to feel "right" to you.

All this talk about the right way for a beginner to start is really personal preference. There are some folks that get off on the technical side of playing so... learning chords, chord forms, etc, etc, works for them. There are others who just want to play and want their playing to be "old school" which was pretty open, raw and definately self-taught.

I have no objection with either. As someone who teaches raw beginners from time to time, getting them playing seems to work well. Another reason (although relatively rare) for simple barre chords in open tuning is the older beginners (with arthritis) that don't have the dextarity to form chords.... put a slide on their finger and off they go to music making heaven.

BTW, I started out as a horn player, then a bass player, so maybe the obsession with learning chords never took with me. Hasn't hurt too much....

Still having fun, which is the best part.

the best,

Wichita Sam

Eric Johnson said:

Thanks to all for posting this great info. One further question, I built a 4 string CBG, not sure why exactly, just did, probably because I am a hack/bad 6 string player, but am years out of practice. I also play bass, better then I could ever play a 6 string, but not a virtuoso by any stretch of the imagination.

It seems there is a lot more stuff out there aimed at learning 3 string playing and such. Am thinking I have a few options: - build another CBG and make it a 3 string
- only put 3 strings on my 4 string
- or add the 4th string so it either duplicates or works well with the DAD or other common 3 string open tunings.

Building another CBG is probably last on the list simply because it took me several months to complete my first build.

If I were to only put 3 strings on it, wonder which string to leave off, the top or the bottom. Leaving the top off might make it easier for slide or fretting?

Thanks, Eric

Permalink Reply by Rick Stepina on September 7, 2010 at 8:59am

This is exactly what newbs are looking for! Simple 3 chord progressions, basic slide technique, etc... Thanks everyone for the great advice! Add more as you see fit, love the info!
Rick S.

Permalink Reply by Fitzhugh on September 7, 2010 at 3:20pm

Rick Stepina said:

This is exactly what newbs are looking for! Simple 3 chord progressions, basic slide technique, etc... Thanks everyone for the great advice! Add more as you see fit, love the info!
Rick S.

Rick points out something I *think* we missed above (maybe I just overlooked it): slide technique.

I'm just learning slide after all those years of, well, not learning slide, but here are a few pointers to start with...

Find which slide works best for you. I love the ugly glass slide I've got and can't stand the metal one I got the same day - huge difference. Try different ones. I had to polish the rough edges of the glass slide, and it has seams to avoid scraping against the strings, but it is heavy, short enough to play any single, two or more strings on the narrow necks in question.

Find which finger the slide works best on. What feels best? What sounds right?
Slide on your 1st or 2nd finger & you can still finger notes below the slide. Slide on your 2nd through 4th finger and you can mute strings behind the slide, avoiding that distraught kitten noise from the headstock side of the strings up above the slide. Anyone else? Suggestions? I've heard great music come from players using each of the four fingers.

When fretting by hand, you usually press the string down close behind the fret and the fret shortens the string the right amount.

When playing with a slide you've got to be more accurate, and play directly over the fret. I don't pay too much attention to the fret, I listen and learn to aim by ear. I find it easiest to learn the notes by fretting, then playing it with slide, not trying to hit it on pitch at first but sliding up to it from a half step or step below. Your ear will tell you when you hit the right note, especially if you just played it fretted as a reference. Keep the slide fluid and don't hesitate to correct the wrong note as you play it.

Don't press the slide all the way down so that the strings touch, or buzz against, the frets.

When sliding on more than one string, make sure the string is parallel to the frets so that both are in tune.



Here is where I think some scale practice does come into play: following Shane Speal's advice, run up and down the fret board with your slide, hitting all the notes in all combinations, just getting your hands to learn the positions. Do this, as he says, while watching TV or doing anything that leaves your hands free. Also per his advice, stick to one string, like playing a diddly bow. We're not talking about endless scale practice here, just keep going so you learn to hit the note you want.


I'm sure there is lots I'm missing - probably lots I'd benefit from reading myself.

On a different but related topic, I use a few peices of software that help in practice, especially in figuring out songs from a CD or mp3. I'm on linux, but two that are also available on mac and pc are:
Audacity, a free, open source multitrack recorder. Not the best for some things, but I like it for quick setup recording and composing.
Transcribe! Free 3 month demo, costs $50. Normally I avoid non free software, but here is one that has no decent competitors to my knowledge. It is an audio file player for learning music. It does a LOT, but most impotrant to me, it will play the music slowed way down but still at pitch, and does better at it that most others I've tried (audacity can do that to, just doesn't do so as cleanly)... AND it will take its best guess at the notes that are in the music and display them. It does a great, not perfect, job, even in somewhat busy music and guitar or piano chords. You can loop over a section slowed down until you get it right. You can even have it loop a portion or the piece at slow speed, then speed up a small amount each time as you learn to play it up to speed. I haven't bought it myself, but, um, *somehow* it has just not expired after three months like it is supposed to. One piece of software I'm willing to pay for, though.

Audacity is available from http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

Transcribe! is available from http://www.seventhstring.com/index.html

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