Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on May 20, 2010 at 6:15am

I never intended to shame you, but I should share a little more.

I once made the mistake of commenting about the limited skills of a rather popular folk artist. My teacher, who I deeply admire said to me, I love his style. I felt ashamed. Clearly I did not understand.

I try my best now, not to compare. Instead I appreciate what is offered. If someone gives you a hamburger, why complain it is not steak? Both are excellent.

When I was a boy, I made fun of a mentally challenged classmate. My teacher, sat me down and in a kind way explained what I did was wrong. His approach was so effective, I remember it to this day. He was not mad at me. He wanted me to appreciate what I had and be compassionate to those who did not have it so good. Don't be arrogant, be thankful. If you got it, share it with those that don't.

Sorry if I sound preachy, but I am ordained.

I think why I enjoy sharing my interest with others is basically because I was so frustrated trying to learn myself. I want to be approachable as a teacher. I want what I teach meet my students needs, not mine.

You sir, have a very nice approach. I enjoy your covers of popular tunes. You sing well and make playing the CBG look effortless. What a great gift.

In closing, let me say, in no way did I want to sound negative. I highly understand what you are saying about many players limited approach. As a teacher, I have been trying to get players interested in the magic of learning a little musical theory and expand their knowledge. Most people ask me, do you have tab for that song? I try to explain they can create their own arrangement if they learn the material on the CDs. But it is funny, most people want to buy the cake...not learn how to make one for themselves.

BTW:
I got to give making one of your guitars a try. I am not a builder myself. I usually live off the kindness of strangers: cigarcitycbgs...backporchmojo...tinyguitars...Richard Sanabia...

Thanks again for sharing.
Enjoy, Keni Lee

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Permalink Reply by Outhouse Instruments on May 20, 2010 at 6:24am

You wanna hear boring .... listen to you typical thrash metal.
Learn 3 power chords and scream into the microphone.

Pop music .... it all sounds like 80's bass heavy syntho-pop .... with the same beat. song sfter song after song etc etc etc.

Blue is what it is. Some find it boring, some don't. The truth is thats the way the music originally was. Alot of it was the same chords, same structure, the difference was how it was used.
Chuck Barry really didn't play that much that was differenrt, he just used it differently.

I play bass at church and in a southern-ish gospel group. I find it funny how many songs I can play with almost the same exact notes and progressions. Thats why I love me some chromatic runs, passes and walking lines. Some stuff I even end up playing almost a lead role. lol
The old red back Broadman hymnal ..... f, c, g, bb .... yer good to go.




My 2 cents. If anyone doesn't agree with me, Thats cool.

Matt

btw- thats also why we have so my different genres.

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Permalink Reply by Crow on May 20, 2010 at 6:52am

let me reel this discussion in a bit.

i'm not worried about chords or structure. if a song has chord changes at all, then it is above the scope of my focus. thrash metal is not boring... far from it. it's dynamic and energetic. having only three chords can be a successful arrangement. and i love 80's sytho-pop, it makes for great acoutstic cover songs, and it has a fun sound. i'm not even that concerned about originality. most of the best loved songs of all time use the tested-and-true I V IV chord progression, and more are written every day.

my main difficulty is sitting through a three minute song that consists of only one chord, and uses the same scale over and over for a melody. the audience gets a moment of relief and waits for the next song, and... same key, same notes used in the melody, and the same drone notes are strummed through the entire song.

when i first heard a lap dulcimer played, it was the most beautiful sound i had ever heard. two songs later, i realized that the instrument, and the player, were trapped in that tuning. i stopped liking the instrument quickly. it seemed to stifle the expression of the artist. i've heard one tuned and scaled in a minor as well, and it was FANTASTIC! beautiful and haunting. but still, the artist was stuck in that key.

i've been performing for people since i was very young, playing both popular and original music. i can read audiences pretty well and it's not hard to tell when they are losing interest. there is a vague expression that sets in around the eyes- they're trying to hang in there, but you've already lost their confidence. if you can't pull it back with the chorus, you'd better have a good song to back it up after that. if not, they may stick around because they feel obliged (and you don't want a pity audience) or they will simply leave.

i have not, nor do i think i shall ever, have an audience that would enjoy listening to me strum a D chord for thirty minutes, unless they were in on the joke.

so to answer your question, keni, i play both for myself AND for other people. i think that music should be shared, and that an artist should be sensitive to the "musical intellect" of their audience.

i love to play because i love music. i love to entertain because i love people.

it's painful to watch a performer lose his/her audience because they are blissfully unaware of the reaction the are garnering from the crowd. i feel bad for both the artist and the audience at that point, because they're both losing out on a potentially valuable experience.

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Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on May 20, 2010 at 6:54am

To find your vocal range, experiment.

If you are using open tunings, for example open D, select a song that you play well. Try singing it in open d first, then capo up a fret at a time. D#...E...F and also try tuning down...C#...C...b flat. The strings might get too loose, but if this works, use heavier string to get the tension right.
You could also practice playing the major scale and singing do,rei,mi,fa,sol,la,ti,do.
When you can match the tones correctly, you are zeroing in on your key. It does vary from song to song. Try this also in open G.
Enjoy.




Wes Yates said:

So Keni,

I sing like a spanked cat with turpentine poured on its ass*, so finding a key is prolly the best thing I can do. How would one go about finding 'their key'. I know popular songs I can sing to (in my own -- special way) and I can find out those keys. But is there a 'secret' to that?

-WY

* which sounds a lot like Yoko Ono if I recall.

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Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on May 20, 2010 at 7:06am

Yes, Crow I understand.
I wonder if you have perfect pitch.
I have meet people with perfect pitch and they usually have a tough time listening to a lot of music because they hear what the majority of people cannot hear. It is a blessing and a curse at the same time.
I have relative pitch.
This has been a lively and enjoyable discussion. It brought out a lot of interesting points.
Thank you for sharing.
Enjoy.

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Permalink Reply by BenBob on May 20, 2010 at 7:45am

I heard crow play... he doesn't have perfect pitch.

Iiiiiii'm KIDDING! I love Crows videos - really inspiring. I agree about the one-chord thing. Very few songs or compositions can hold my interest with a melody against a single, droning chord. "She Put the Lime in the Coconut" is a one-chord song that's pretty cool.

Keni, I don't understand your comments about matching vocals to keys. That is true for a given song - the melody is fixed and changing key means you have to sing higher or lower. But for writing, even those of us with limited ranges can find comfortable melodies in *any* key. There's no reason to prefer any key over another until the melody is written.

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Permalink Reply by Crow on May 20, 2010 at 7:55am

@ ben jordan

i think you hit the nail on the head there bud.

with me, when writing songs in a new key, it's more about finding notes in that key that i can hit nicely.

i just kind of strum my way slowly through the chord progression, and at each chord, i kind of voice-check each note in that chord. i pause if i have to, and pluck each note in the chord i'm holding, and try to match my voice to each one. i'll find a note that's easiest to match, then go to the next chord and do the same thing. then i'll strum through the progression again slowly, carefully re-finding the notes i liked with my voice.

i repeat this until i can go through the whole progression (usually only four bars) and confidently hit the notes i wanted with my voice.

the melody then becomes it's own organic thing, that grows based on notes that i am already vocally comfortable with. so the "task" of writing a melody is removed, and the stress of thinking it up is relieved. i've written several songs this way, and if i take enough time in the development phase and strum through it enough times, the song almost writes itself, and the product has a reliable level of quality, no matter what key i'm trying to write in.

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Permalink Reply by BenBob on May 20, 2010 at 8:16am

Cool - I'd love to write more but I struggle with lyrics. I've been going through a couple books though that have kind of helped, but it's slow going.

BTW, I was thinking about playing other keys with AEA. The root chord of D and F contain the A note, so you'd have some open strings available in those keys. LIkewise Am, Dm, and F#m.

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Permalink Reply by Rev. Nix on May 20, 2010 at 8:44am

Sounds like beshore 2 me?.... Im just saying

East Texas Tramps said:

thinking is a bad idea, i strongly suggest you not do it.

but, if you leave the safe little world of the cigar box nation, you can find plenty of examples of people stretching the limitations of the instrument. your post is exactly why i think this place is backwards as-all-get-out. only boring people sound boring.

who am i?

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Permalink Reply by Nathan King on May 20, 2010 at 8:53am

I see what yer saying about the dulcimers and dulcimer like instruments. I love 'em, and think they are really neat, but I won't play more than 2 songs with the same instrument (and thus, same key) in a row, because you are limited to not just the same key, but the same scale as well. At least, for the most part (you could kinda get away with the relative minor, or you can change the tuning in between songs....), and least as I understand that type of instrument (which, it should be pointed out, is not much)

But yeah Crow, check out (if you haven't already) a lot of Howlin' Wolf's tunes. Smokestack Lightnin is the first that popped into my head, but he's got a fair amount of one-chord songs. And the way Hubert Sumlin plays over them is really great. He'll play all these minute variations which help to keep it interesting. And plus, Hubert is one of my favorite guitarists; his style is just a joy to listen to. Even more so to watch him play.

Keni Lee, yeah sure, there might be better guitarists than you... but don't sell yourself short, either :-) I've always and will always enjoy hearing you play, not to mention you've shown me some things that opened my eyes to new ideas. You sir, are a damn fine guitar player! It's like Buddy Guy said, "I'm just gonna be the best until someone better comes along."

And in regards to thrash metal, I cannot say it's boring. Far from it. You may not like to listen to it, but I won't think any less of you for it. That's the beauty of this whole music "thing:" there is something out there for everyone. It's the people who say they don't like music in general who I worry about :-)

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Permalink Reply by Brian " BigB " Saunders on May 20, 2010 at 9:29am

You're such a ass-kisser Crow!! LOL I'm just kidding ya Bro. Being a builder and not learning how to play yet I have no idea what the hell you guys are talking about LOL But I hope in 6 months to a year I can look back at this post and go "Oh yeah, I see what he means" LOL

Crow said:

@ keni lee burgess

i would honestly be *horrified* if you felt my comment was aimed at you. you're one of the best CBG guys on the net. your talent and knowledge of tuning is simply unmatched.. and the best part is that you SHARE it all with us through your videos. your lengthy explanations about tunings and string arrangements are a shining example of all that is good in this community!!!!!

really, that's the part that i love the most, making videos and sharing what we've found. your videos have helped me reign in difficult concepts SEVERAL times when considering tuning.

and i -am- a little ashamed for starting this post. i try very hard to keep my image a very positive one. i end all my videos with a smile and encouragement, and i strongly resist the urge to make smart remarks or to be "hard" on other players.

you have shamed me keni, and i deserve it a little.

i hope you understand my intent was not to be harsh on players, really more to vent a general frustration.
i missed breakfast this morning. i'll eat something and come back.

thanks so much for your praise. both shame and praise from a guy like you means a lot to little old me.

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Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on May 20, 2010 at 9:48am

Yes, what you are saying is correct. A specific song might be arranged by a band in a certain key. If you cannot sing in this key, you have two choices. Capo up / tune down or re-arrange the song to match your voice. The common mistake is to learn how to play in open tuning D or G and not realize you might need to capo up or tune down to be able to sing correctly. Many players try to force their vocals on songs that they learned to play in a specific key. I was simply trying to bring this to his attention.
I like to sing in open C, C#, F and F# I can sing in D and G, but it really works my vocal chords. Singing lower I can go for hours.
On youtube, viewers write to me and say, you are not playing that Robert Johnson song in the right key. They don't realize why I change the key. Some people think covering a song means you have to play it in the recorded key! Thank you for your question. Enjoy.

Ben Jordan said:

I heard crow play... he doesn't have perfect pitch.

Iiiiiii'm KIDDING! I love Crows videos - really inspiring. I agree about the one-chord thing. Very few songs or compositions can hold my interest with a melody against a single, droning chord. "She Put the Lime in the Coconut" is a one-chord song that's pretty cool.

Keni, I don't understand your comments about matching vocals to keys. That is true for a given song - the melody is fixed and changing key means you have to sing higher or lower. But for writing, even those of us with limited ranges can find comfortable melodies in *any* key. There's no reason to prefer any key over another until the melody is written.

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