Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Diane in Chicago on September 15, 2011 at 1:20am

My friend Jef Long (member here, builder and teacher) uses a sharpie and darkens the fretwire of the non-diatonic frets, and then encourages his students to simply use only the bright shiny frets.

 

This, of course, assumes you are tuned in some sort of 1-5 combination of notes.

 

When you are proficient with just your diatonics, a little 0000 steel wool takes the sharpie right off.

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Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on September 15, 2011 at 1:34am

Ahhh hahhhh. I see what the problem is. The doofus that wrote FretCalc wrote the 7th fret as '6 1/2' thus making the '7th' really the '8th' fret'.

 

I'm sure most dulcimer builders this this way tho, but on most calcs I have seen, they indicate frets in whole numbers, not fractions of numbers.

 

 

See, this would indicate to me if I were looking at the FretCalc chart, that either the scale was wrong or that your indication of where the octave is would be wrong.

 

-WY

Rand Moore said:

Here's the chart I use to remember which frets to use to build a diatonically fretted instrument:

From this diagram I can see that we use all the standard guitar frets except guitar frets 1, 3, 6, 8, 13, 15, 18, and 20. These eight frets can be safely removed from a guitar to turn it into a diatonically fretted strum stick like instrument.

 

Also, you will not need a fret calculator to calculate new positions for your frets on the fretboard because the diatonic fret layout (and all the fret positions there-in) is a subset of the chromatic fret layout used in guitars, banjos, mandolins, ukuleles and most other Western fretted string instruments.

 

-Rand.

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Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on September 15, 2011 at 1:40am

I could be wrong, but on my dulci here, the 9th fret is the octave @ 1/2 the scale. We might wanna verify that.

 

I miscounted. It is the 8th fret not the 9th.

 

-WY

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Permalink Reply by Diane in Chicago on September 15, 2011 at 2:08am

Here's that long thread on diatonic fretting, over in the Dulcimer and Strummer group.  The mountain dulcimer evolved in its own little world, isolated from guitar folks, and dulcimer players came up with their own diatonic fret numbering system.  Their octave is called "7", and there are two optional 1/2 frets that builders include or not.  They are the 1 1/2 and the 6 1/2.  That allows the player to play minor or mixolydian tunes without retuning.

 

http://www.cigarboxnation.com/group/dulciworld/forum/topics/fret-sp...

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Permalink Reply by Seaman Jay on September 15, 2011 at 2:14am

From the music theory's point of view - a musical scale (major) is built as follow:

base-whole (tone)-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half

It means - taking the nut for the "base" - and assuming standard 1/2 tone per fret fretting - we should use:

2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 12th fret (strumstick numbers - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 <- octave). If you're stripping down an already fretted instrument there's no need for a greater precision...

 

Or did I misunderstand something?

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Permalink Reply by Rand Moore on September 15, 2011 at 3:07am

Hi Wes.

Thanks for pointing it out. I am human and can (usually always) make mistakes. Let me double check all the data that went into building that chart, beginning with my two reference models: my 3/4 scale "El Cheapo" Chinese made guitar  that I picked up for $50 and my McNally Standard Strumstick that I purchased maybe 5 years ago in the States. It seems I have built several instruments choosing the frets from this diagram with no problems, but that sure doesn't prove anything. Hopefully, its something simple (probably so simple it missed my attention). I'll be back once I have identified the problem, so stay tuned.

-Rand.

 

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Permalink Reply by Rand Moore on September 15, 2011 at 3:38am

Wow, that's cool. You found the problem for me, Wes. I guess that's what I get for time multiplexing my CBN discussion replies with tutoring my daughter in math, spelling and reading. I already reviewed my two reference models assuming string 1 was tuned to D and my original data all seems right. After doing that I noticed all the other replies to this thread. With the McNally strum stick, they only add to the confusion by calling their 6.5 string "7", and then renumbering the rest of the strings. I don't know how many (dozens) of times I tripped over that. And the McNally strumstick also has a fret 0 instead of a nut, so likely you counted fret 0 as fret 1.

Diane is right and I know this from experience, fret 7 is the octave (equivalent to fret 12 on a guitar), and Rafal is right about which notes (hence frets) make up a major scale. What I remember to figure out the intervals of a major scale is "w-w-h-w-w-w-h" where "w" is a whole step, and "h" is a half step. Then because the mountain (and stick) dulcimers are Mixolydian mode instruments, you'll also need the flattened 7th. In my notation, Mixolydian mode would be: w-w-h-w-w-h-w, so for the D scale we'd have {D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D'} (including the octave). So, on dulcimers, the 7th would be a C, but on a D major scale instrument, the 7th would be C#. In dulcimer-speak, this 7th (as a C natural) is fret 6, and the fret added to support the major scales (also called "Ionian mode" and which in my example is a C#) is called fret "six and a half" (also called 6½, 6.5, 6+ or 6*).  McNally decided this was all to confusing, so he decided to confuse things further by calling fret 6.5 fret "7" and incrementing each traditional dulcimer fret number by 1. Of course this just adds to the confusion. Then throw in a fret 0 instead of a nut that looks like all the other frets and if that doesn't trip you up I don't know what will.

-Rand.

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Permalink Reply by Rand Moore on September 15, 2011 at 3:43am

Such an easy way to do it. Thanks for the tip.

-Rand.

 

Diane in Chicago said:

My friend Jef Long (member here, builder and teacher) uses a sharpie and darkens the fretwire of the non-diatonic frets, and then encourages his students to simply use only the bright shiny frets.

 

This, of course, assumes you are tuned in some sort of 1-5 combination of notes.

 

When you are proficient with just your diatonics, a little 0000 steel wool takes the sharpie right off.

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Permalink Reply by Rand Moore on September 15, 2011 at 3:51am

Yeah, when Mike Roop finds another 1$ guitar at a yard sale, he can try to make a blues scale guitar. That would be interesting, too. I wish I could find such a deal.

-Rand

 

Diane in Chicago said:

Here's that long thread on diatonic fretting, over in the Dulcimer and Strummer group.  The mountain dulcimer evolved in its own little world, isolated from guitar folks, and dulcimer players came up with their own diatonic fret numbering system.  Their octave is called "7", and there are two optional 1/2 frets that builders include or not.  They are the 1 1/2 and the 6 1/2.  That allows the player to play minor or mixolydian tunes without retuning.

 

http://www.cigarboxnation.com/group/dulciworld/forum/topics/fret-sp...

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Permalink Reply by Rand Moore on September 15, 2011 at 4:55am

Hi Mike Roop.

It seems that even experienced builders get confused over all these details. Let's try to simplify it. Focusing only on your guitar's first string, let's tune it to "D" and then record the note each fret will make using a digital tuner and record those frets and notes on a piece of paper in a table format. Now just assume every modern dulcimer (stick or mountain) will use the following 8 out of the 12 possible notes in the chromatic scale when tuned to an open D: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, and C#. On my 3/4 sized guitar, it has 18 frets, so you may also want to use notes, D, E, F#, and G from the second octave. So, go down your list of frets and mark out the notes/frets you won't be using: D#, F, G# and A# (in both octaves). What is left are the frets you will need to implement your diatonic guitar. Here's my list:

 

Fret 0 (Nut):  D

Fret 1: D#  [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 2: E  -- Keep

Fret 3: F [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 4: F# -- Keep

Fret 5: G -- Keep

Fret 6: G# [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 7: A -- Keep

Fret 8: A# [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 9: B -- Keep

Fret 10: C -- Keep

Fret 11: C# -- Keep

Fret 12: D -- Keep

Fret 13: D# [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 14: E -- Keep

Fret 15: F [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 16: F# -- Keep

Fret 17: G -- Keep

Fret 18: G# [REMOVE THIS FRET]

 

Just remove the seven frets marked "[REMOVE THIS FRET]" and you will have your diatonic guitar.

 

It's not hard, just sometimes confusing when you mix fret numbering schemes and try to think through it all mentally.

 

-Rand.

 

.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Roop on September 15, 2011 at 5:04am

thanks Rand!

wow, i'm glad I have you guys at my disposal! it's like having Einstein around when studying for a physics test!

 

Thanks again to every one of you!

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Permalink Reply by Mark Milam on September 16, 2011 at 4:59pm

HI Rand,

Now if you wanted to make a "Blues" strum stick, where all the notes would be the Blues scale...what frets would you have to remove to say do a GDG Blues Strum stick...is it possible??  Does anyone build these, I'd buy one :D 

Thanks

Mark

Rand Moore said:

Hi Mike Roop.

It seems that even experienced builders get confused over all these details. Let's try to simplify it. Focusing only on your guitar's first string, let's tune it to "D" and then record the note each fret will make using a digital tuner and record those frets and notes on a piece of paper in a table format. Now just assume every modern dulcimer (stick or mountain) will use the following 8 out of the 12 possible notes in the chromatic scale when tuned to an open D: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, and C#. On my 3/4 sized guitar, it has 18 frets, so you may also want to use notes, D, E, F#, and G from the second octave. So, go down your list of frets and mark out the notes/frets you won't be using: D#, F, G# and A# (in both octaves). What is left are the frets you will need to implement your diatonic guitar. Here's my list:

 

Fret 0 (Nut):  D

Fret 1: D#  [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 2: E  -- Keep

Fret 3: F [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 4: F# -- Keep

Fret 5: G -- Keep

Fret 6: G# [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 7: A -- Keep

Fret 8: A# [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 9: B -- Keep

Fret 10: C -- Keep

Fret 11: C# -- Keep

Fret 12: D -- Keep

Fret 13: D# [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 14: E -- Keep

Fret 15: F [REMOVE THIS FRET]

Fret 16: F# -- Keep

Fret 17: G -- Keep

Fret 18: G# [REMOVE THIS FRET]

 

Just remove the seven frets marked "[REMOVE THIS FRET]" and you will have your diatonic guitar.

 

It's not hard, just sometimes confusing when you mix fret numbering schemes and try to think through it all mentally.

 

-Rand.

 

.

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