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Under the saddle rod piezo disappointment...

Hey all,

I recently completed my first CBG and decided to try a rod piezo under the saddle -vs- using the disc type glued in the box somewhere. From all I read, the under the saddle pickup was the way to go. However, I'm pretty disappointed in the sound.

Did some more reading and discovered that if I'm plugging into a standard electric guitar amp, a piezo "buffer", or preamp is a good thing to have, so I whipped up a little J-FET, impedence matching, buffer with only marginal improvement . OK, it's easier to drive the amp, but the sound really lacks depth and is shrill, sharp, scatchy, clacky... just generally unpleasant.

So I'm thinking to myself that maybe, just maybe, something is amiss with my pickup or wiring, so I do a little experiment and stick a disc piezo to the box with a gob of Silly Putty and run that directly into my little buffer and into my amp. Wow, what a difference - now it sounds more like what I expected. If I use double sided foam tape to stick the disc to the box the sound improves even more. Hmmmm....I then had a Eureka! moment - could it be that my rod piezo is just fine, but it's more likely the relative placement to the string terminations?

You see, I'm using a home-made tail piece to terminate my strings and the saddle is only about 1.5" away from the tailpiece. Is it possible that there's too much pressure on the pickup and that's why the sound quality is surpassed by the lowly, hastily applied, disc piezo?

Before I cut into the box and glue in some discs (yes, the box is glued shut) , I thought I'd run my theory by you all. What do you all think? Did I screw up with my basic geometry?

Oh, but wait, here's the interesting part... took the CBG to my local Guitar Center to test drive some amps in it's current configuration... although it was well received visually, it had that same nasty, shrill, scratchy, clacky, sharp, unpleasant tone... that is until we plugged it into a $360 Fishman Loudbox Mini ACOUSTIC amp, then and only then did it sound friggin' amazing - very much like a nice amped acoustic guitar. Do these amps have a lot of filtering and signal manipulation to deal with this? I mean it was a whole different guitar and the one guy played it for 20 minutes and I stood there in awe.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm really lost here - please, somebody, show me the way to CBG nirvana.

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Permalink Reply by jawbone on September 30, 2013 at 5:12am

Sounzzzzz great Randy!

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Permalink Reply by Suspect Device on September 30, 2013 at 6:18am

Joe: this may have been addressed somewhere in the previous responses but based on your pic, it looks like you may not have sufficient break angle over the saddle. As mentioned earlier, the rod needs downward pressure in order to work properly. So you need good string tension. Obviously the sharper the angle, the more downward pressure/tension you will get. Lowering your tailpiece, etc. will help. You can get away with having a little wiggle room in your saddle slot -front to back & side to side- just not up & down.

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Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 30, 2013 at 8:45am

Just some observations Here's what I see:

1) Break angle over the saddle still looks a tad shallow. Bend yer tailpiece down till it almost touches the box, or cut it back, about half, toward the tail.
2) Saddle may be a touch too wide? Thin it toward the top; not knife edge sharp, but maybe thinner than you have it now ( although it looks similar in thickness to Randy's saddles...).
3) Bridge looks a little too massive. Thin it down on all sides.

Here's what I don't see:

1) How the rod piezo is laying in the saddle slot. Is the saddle pressing down evenly on it all along its length?

2) Maybe your homemade pre amp wasn't working properly? The Fishman Loudbox Mini indeed has a preamp built-in, so that is probably what was mainly boosting your signal, not your homemade pre. Fishman under saddle rod piezos and preamps are used on a wide variety of commercial acoustic-electric gits; they know how to get the best sound out of piezos better than almost anybody.

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Permalink Reply by Joe Webster on October 1, 2013 at 12:12am

Everyone - thanks for all the input. I sort of agree - the issue has to be in the saddle, bridge, break-over angle, etc, etc...

FWIW, the slot in the bridge was cut using a 1/8" dia end mill, about .090" from the bottom of the bridge, and it has a flat bottom. The saddle is a nice sliding fit - not so tight that it sticks, but no slop either.

I'm pretty sure my preamp is working as the disc piezos stuck to the outside of the box sound pretty darn good - good enough to make me want to abandon the rod piezo altogether. However, if I do that, what have a I learned, right? I'm guessing that the Fishman amp was making up for a lot of my set-ups short comings, huh?

I'm going to work on this end of things and report back when I get it figured out.

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Permalink Reply by darryl kernaghan on October 1, 2013 at 3:26am

sounds like your rod setup is ok,my 1st was a disaster,try setting up an inline pre-amp after the output jack temporarily,see how it goes,if all good,maybe you can fit pre output jack in guit.

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Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on October 2, 2013 at 6:25am

Ok, then why not add another jack? Use your pre when you wanna play with disks, use the amp when you wanna use the rod...different sounds, same git. Could work. Looking forward to your solution...

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Permalink Reply by Joe Webster on October 2, 2013 at 2:20pm

That's not a bad idea, but the truth is that the rod piezo truly sucks - in my current configuration. I'm not giving up on the rod just yet... it's an interesting problem and will be a great learning experience. I'll work on the rod set-up a bit and take it from there. However, I'm seriously considering one of the flat-pups as less surgery will be required to install (-vs- dual disc piezos) and a mag pickup is more of the sound I'm after anyway.

For whatever reason, the rod really sounded good through the Fishman amp, but there's no way I'm gonna plop down that kind of cash for a one trick pony.

Success or failure, you'll read about it here!

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Permalink Reply by Suspect Device on October 2, 2013 at 2:58pm

I am a fan of the rods mostly due to the fact that they allow for an acoustic/electric build without sacrificing any more cubic inches inside the box. I think they sound much better than the discs; less "neck noise." Shielded mag pups will almost always sound better than any piezo, but then you get into having to add extra beef to the neck (on a thru-neck, anyway) since mounting it requires cutting a deeper cavity in the neck to accept the depth of the pickup. You could just as easily build a rectangular solidbody and wrap a pretty cigar box around it ...and a lot of guys do just that. I'm often left scratching my head when it comes to people freaking out about things like sustain & tonal quality with these things. It is a cigar box guitar, after all. It's NOT SUPPOSED to sound like a standard guitar. I mean, I play mine through nothing but 30-dollar amps from the pawnshop. Don't get me wrong, I am all for making the best looking, best sounding, and most playable instrument I can -and I work very hard at it- but I will never use one of those godawful plastic-y onboard chinese pre-amp things with all the switches & crap. The flat pup is a really good option. I have not used them myself, but other folks who I trust swear by them. When I am having issues with a particular build, sometimes I just put it away for awhile & work on another one. One of the greatest things about this hobby/business/pastime/obsession is the experimentation aspect of it all. Over time, I have learned to solve/fix most of problems I run into. But it took awhile, and I have what is left of the 5 or 6 cbgs that got smashed against the floor/wall/amp in fits of angst-ridden rage to prove it. : -)

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Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on October 2, 2013 at 3:05pm

We want pics of angst-ridden rage!

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Permalink Reply by Suspect Device on October 2, 2013 at 3:15pm

Someday I will. Right now I've got at all stowed in a box under the bench, behind the cough syrup & the Xanax.

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Permalink Reply by Joe Webster on October 5, 2013 at 6:06am

Slight update... I spent a couple hours this morning working on this thing. Fabricated a new tail piece in an attempt to improve the string break-over and and I'm sorry to report it didn't help one bit. (I also sanded the thickness of the saddle to loosen it in the slot and filed the bottom edge square and flat.)

I'm convinced that my current geometry doesn't allow for enough down pressure on the pickup as pressing down on the saddle while plucking a string improves the sound dramatically. (Sill not as "bassy (?) as the disc stuck to the outside of the box though).

Check out the attached video below...

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Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on October 5, 2013 at 7:47am

Joe,

Ok, that first bit sounded kinda metallic ( not in a bad way). It sounded the way many CBGs do through a piezo. The second bit, where I saw you pressing down on the ends of the saddle, did seem to thicken the sound, warming it up. Yes, you were exerting more pressure on the rod. You could always just strap down the ends of the saddle, with some kinda thin metal strap, screwing it right into the bridge, so that that pressure is constant. More drastic would be to drop your strings through the box and neck, out the back of the box, like a Strat.