Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 26, 2010 at 12:29pm

Hi Michael. Great point. The string height isn't actually much lower at the moment than it was before and the neck seems to be angling forward more than it did. There is even a bit of slope from one side to the other (higher string to lower string), and I'm not sure how that happened but someone is going to get a proper telling off ;-)

Once I have changed the neck angle I will see where that leaves the string height at the octave. It will be easy to pack out the bridge a bit more if I need to. I probably won't do a new bridge and nut until I do the final finishing and polishing of the instrument and that is likely to be after I have built the next one (fretted this time) as I don't want to be without something to play (I am not hooked, honest).

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 27, 2010 at 3:33am

Hi Michael.

I was thinking about your message and in particular the bit about the "string angle to tail" being off. On mine, when I raised the neck and bridge it increased the angle over the saddle and has boosted the volume from the under-saddle pickup, which has been a very good thing. What was off about your instrument? I ask so that I know what to look for on mine when I come to make more adjustments. Thanks again for all the really helpful info.

MichaelS said:

Good to hear its getting better, fine tuning is half the fun. Just remember if you angle the neck the bridge will need to be raised again, so do it before making another bridge. I angled one of mine and it was to much bridge height and the string angle to tail was all off. Each little change effects so much. Have fun and happy holiday weekend.

Permalink Reply by Outhouse Instruments on November 28, 2010 at 1:54am

I have a question. And experience with fretless ( bassist).
What wood is the finger board?
The muted effect is most likely a result of the string laying on the fretboard when fingering.
It sounde nice and tight when picked open - nice sharp edges on the nut and bridge. Fretted the string is laying on the fingerboard the width of your finger ... the nice sharp nut edge is gone. The frets give this sharp edge.
One way around this ... nice hard wood. Fretless instruments usually have fingerboards made of Rosewood ( at least) or something even harder. The string won't dig in when fretted.
Another way around this is the old fretless mountain banjo trick ... fret with a finger nail.
You can also treat the fingerboard with something to give a harder surface.


Matt

Permalink Reply by MichaelS Country Boy Guitars on November 28, 2010 at 4:36am

On mine the angle got too step, and the result was a bridge that wanted to tip over when under tension. I raised the end were the strings terminated and that cured that problem. Steeper is good, too steep is bad, what is the magic number? I don't know, I think it also depends on the b ridge shape, etc etc. Oh and to add to Matts advise my necks are black walnut, nice and hard so that may be helping me.

John H. Maw said:

Hi Michael.

I was thinking about your message and in particular the bit about the "string angle to tail" being off. On mine, when I raised the neck and bridge it increased the angle over the saddle and has boosted the volume from the under-saddle pickup, which has been a very good thing. What was off about your instrument? I ask so that I know what to look for on mine when I come to make more adjustments. Thanks again for all the really helpful info.

MichaelS said:

Good to hear its getting better, fine tuning is half the fun. Just remember if you angle the neck the bridge will need to be raised again, so do it before making another bridge. I angled one of mine and it was to much bridge height and the string angle to tail was all off. Each little change effects so much. Have fun and happy holiday weekend.

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 28, 2010 at 11:23am

Hi Matt.


Thanks for the help. As to what the wood for the fingerboard is I am not sure. It came from a broken stool and doesn't look like anything that I have seen elsewhere. Here is a link to a photo of some more of the same wood just in case this helps (it's a bigger pic than I can put up here).

https://api.ning.com/files/agjMne8A3C010ocH8GBqfsIgLANhc8yy7T9ojPHy... The wood seems similar in hardness to oak, but not as hard as something like boxwood. I have some ebony to use for the next ones but then I will probably also fret them. How would you give an existing fingerboard a harder surface?


Thanks again for the help.


Artist Formerly Known as Matt said:

I have a question. And experience with fretless ( bassist).

What wood is the finger board?
The muted effect is most likely a result of the string laying on the fretboard when fingering.
It sounde nice and tight when picked open - nice sharp edges on the nut and bridge. Fretted the string is laying on the fingerboard the width of your finger ... the nice sharp nut edge is gone. The frets give this sharp edge.
One way around this ... nice hard wood. Fretless instruments usually have fingerboards made of Rosewood ( at least) or something even harder. The string won't dig in when fretted.
Another way around this is the old fretless mountain banjo trick ... fret with a finger nail.
You can also treat the fingerboard with something to give a harder surface.


Matt

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 28, 2010 at 11:29am

Hi Michael.

I see what you mean about the bridge. As you say, steeper does seem to be good, particularly if you are using an under-saddle pickup. The sound is quite a bit stronger since I raised the neck and bridge. Thanks again.


MichaelS said:

On mine the angle got too step, and the result was a bridge that wanted to tip over when under tension. I raised the end were the strings terminated and that cured that problem. Steeper is good, too steep is bad, what is the magic number? I don't know, I think it also depends on the b ridge shape, etc etc. Oh and to add to Matts advise my necks are black walnut, nice and hard so that may be helping me.

Permalink Reply by Outhouse Instruments on November 28, 2010 at 3:09pm

Cyanocrylate .... otherwise know as superglue. Get the really watery thin stuff, and play with it on scrap. I have never used it , but have heard on other forums that it works.
I have used gorilla glue or similar on a bass, but the strings are way thicker. It should work, but don't use water and the wood has to be really dry. You don't want the glue to foam and expand. Again, play with it.
OR quick and easy ..... get a piece of formica, you know, the countertop stuff, and glue it on.


Matt

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 29, 2010 at 9:06am

Hi Matt. The neck had several applications of grain filler (sanding sealer) and then a few coats of Tru Oil. Do you think that Super Glue would penetrate after that? On a general note, I have adjusted the neck angle by the addition of some bits of paper at one end of where the neck is fixed.

The string height at the 12th is somewhere between 5/32" and 3/16" (4mm). The fingering seems to be getting better. Weather it is the adjustments or as Michael says just a consequence of practice I can't say. Still lots of room for improvement. Incidentally, I had this comment from Keni Lee a little while ago. Thought I would pass it on (with his permission). "Hello John, I was reading your group about playing fretless. I am mostly a fretted instrument player myself, but I don't know if anyone brought this up. In most cases unfretted instruments have gut or nylon strings. Early gourd banjos for example. Nylon tunes at a much lower tension than steel, making it easier to fret. This might be a consideration. Additionally you could build a lighter instrument like a classical guitar to get a better vibrational response. Good Luck with your research. Enjoy."

Permalink Reply by Mark on November 29, 2010 at 10:08am

John, I think playing style and practice might have a part to play in solving your problem. Your guitar looks pretty good to me and I've seen people play on fretless guitars that looked a lot rougher and had higher or lower actions. I guess that over time you might find a slight adjustment here or there makes the thing feel better or work better, but I can't see anything glaringly wrong as it stands. If you reckon the finger board is as hard as oak then I reckon that's well hard enough.

When I first started playing around with these things I figured I wouldn't be able to finger notes on a fretless and I'd have to stick with just a slide - and that's what I did for a while. I'd managed to get notes out of a fretless bass but a guitar seemed like a very different matter (possibly something to do with bass strings having a lot more mass). Eventually it got to the point where I'd seen enough other people fingering notes on fretless guitars that I figured I ought to be able to do it, even though I'm a pretty cack-handed player. My first efforts sounded a bit dull and damped, perhaps like yours. But somehow I've got a bit better. I suspect there's been a process of "learning the feel" of doing it right - and possibly also of building up strength in my fingers.
Several things I've noticed:
(1) It makes a big difference what style of music you're trying to play - some things seem to work and some things don't. But then CBGs are like that - there's not much point in trying to build one as a general purpose instrument, it tends to be more a matter of building one and then discovering what it wants to play.
(2) I find it hard to get a decent sound on plain strings - so I tend to stick to only fingering the wound ones. (All my instruments use steel strings so I can't speak for what it's like with nylon strings).
(3) Fingering works much better at the nut end of the neck - if I try to go much above the fifth fret it gets difficult and the sound tends to become a bit rubbish.
(4) I find fingered notes work best when mixed in with open strings and slide notes - somehow, through some trick of the ear, the sustain of the open strings or the slide notes makes the fingered notes sound better. Also, I tend to use a slide or open strings for sustained notes and fingering when I want a hammer on or pull off effect.

Finally, if you continue finding it hard to get a sound you like, then fear not because putting frets on a neck is easier than it might seem.

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 29, 2010 at 12:44pm

Hi Mark. I think you are spot on. Most of what you say about it being partly down to practice and possible getting stronger with the fingering I am already observing to some extent and the bit about choosing the right music is also something that I am finding out by trial and lots of error.

I also think that having a slide sitting there on one finger sort of gets in the way a bit, so I tend to just use the slide for everything. I think I have to be determined and make myself try to finger more often.

As far as fretting is concerned, the next instruments in my plan are a three and four string fretted although I will probably start with a strummer just to practice a bit of fretting before doing it in earnest.

Thanks for the help.

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