Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Allan on November 18, 2010 at 12:37am

Personally I make all mine fretless and really do not have a problem, I had a professional violin player (a friend) help me with mine, you want a sharp edge leaving your nut and entering your bridge ( helps eliminate the sitar sound) and your strings need to be the right height a good way to check is the sound of your strings at half a fret off your nut ,, it that sounds good you should be okay if you can not get that note your strings are to high and it also does not require a lot of pressure on the strings,,
you might consider talking to some violinists..
Allan

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 18, 2010 at 12:56am

Hi Allan. Thanks for the very quick reply. I have friends who play violin and I used to play the viola, but those are bowed. If you hear a violin plucked it doesn't exactly sound great even with a whole orchestral section doing it, which is presumably why plucking is used so little in orchestral music.

It's interesting that you don't have a problem and so you have confirmed that it is something that I should be able to achieve. So it sounds as if I need to reduce the string hight in some way. I can't lower the bridge as I have an under-saddle pickup and there is barely room for it as it is. Maybe I can angle the neck back. Just to give me an idea what I need to achieve, can you tell me roughly the distance between the string and the fingerboard at the octave (12th fret)? Also, are you using the flesh of the finger to contact the string or the nail? Do you know if string tension plays a part (as this is my first instrument I have only guessed at the tuning and string choice)?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am keen to get this sorted out and really appreciate the help. Thanks again.

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 18, 2010 at 5:57am

Just a little follow up. I measured the string hight at the 12th fret and it comes out at about 4mm or 5/32". I tried putting some wood of about 3mm thickness under the strings in about that place to simulate a higher fingerboard but the results were not conclusive.

I suppose the question still remains weather it is a problem of guitar design or poor technique. As a novice at both guitar making and playing it could well be either or both.

Permalink Reply by David Sutton on November 18, 2010 at 7:09am

Maybe Allan could provide us some recordings?

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 18, 2010 at 8:53am

Hi David. Should I take it from your reply that you also have similar difficulty to mine? Not sure weather that is implied.

One thing that occurs to me is weather the playing style and type of music that you like to play makes a difference. What I mean is that if you are playing rock music with lots of distortion is fingering a fretless more acceptable than when going for a slower more melodic delta blues type sound. I'm not saying that this is the case. Just postulating and hoping to get guidance.

Permalink Reply by David Sutton on November 18, 2010 at 10:29am

Not my area of expertise at all, but that never stops me from having and opinion!

I think fretless fingering is great with a bass, because you're not looking for the clarity of a guitar. I think fingering with a guitar calls for frets to give it that crispy sound. I've heard of people playing fretless banjos, but banjos have a built-in crispness and twang that probably compensates for the muffly sound inherent in fretless fingering. I think most folks who want to play with fingering (instead of slide) opt for frets.

I'm curious: What's the draw for you for playing fretless/fingering as opposed to fretted? If it's the soft, muffled sound then you clearly have that- but that doesn't seem to be what you want. Again, what's the draw?

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 18, 2010 at 1:30pm

Hi David. It's the peril of being a novice player/maker. I read that the fretting bit was the hardest bit of making an instrument and decided that as I was anxious to get playing the first one would be fretless. My intention is to start on a fretted three string and also a fretted four string instrument very soon.

At first I assumed that fingering was out of the question, but then I seemed to see people fingering fretless instruments. It's difficult to tell sometimes from videos on YouTube, but it seemed that it might be possible and it would open up a lot more music than I am able to play at the moment.

Permalink Reply by Mama Mojo on November 18, 2010 at 4:09pm

I think that back in the day when these things were first being built, nobody worried about frets and they still got a good sound out of them when playing fingerstyle. I fret my instruments unless someone orders one fretless, but I keep my action low or medium low just as I do on my fretted guitars. It really makes a huge difference. I have CBGs that I have just build with single coil pups in them and I bring the fretboard onto the top of the box to compensate for the pup height and it still works out with low action. I find that these instruments are so much stronger when you use a fingerboard on top of the wood that you are running through the body. Darren, at Back Porch Mojo, taught me that if you do it this way, you don't weaken the neck by having to cut a relief for the box. I just set one up like that today and it sounds great.... It would still work on low action if the guitar didn't have frets.... just my .02 cents!

John H. Maw said:

Hi David. It's the peril of being a novice player/maker. I read that the fretting bit was the hardest bit of making an instrument and decided that as I was anxious to get playing the first one would be fretless. My intention is to start on a fretted three string and also a fretted four string instrument very soon.

At first I assumed that fingering was out of the question, but then I seemed to see people fingering fretless instruments. It's difficult to tell sometimes from videos on YouTube, but it seemed that it might be possible and it would open up a lot more music than I am able to play at the moment.

Permalink Reply by Julz aka Varnum Slim on November 18, 2010 at 5:20pm

Hi John. What string gauge are you using? Thicker strings are easier to finger. Lighter the gauge and thinner the string the more it will dig into your finger instead of getting fingered. Also I've also found higher action is better. Try the heavier mid gauge strings and build up those callouses :o)

Permalink Reply by Julz aka Varnum Slim on November 18, 2010 at 5:22pm

Forgot to add fretless CBG seems to sound clearer amped than acoustic for some reason. I use piezo not coil so I don't know if that factors in at all.

Permalink Reply by Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw on November 19, 2010 at 1:02am

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I have just done a little test in regard to string thickness. As Julz suggests thicker strings do seem to finger better (at least in my test). I seem to get the worst results fingering the highest (thinnest) string. I have to confess that I have no idea of the string gauge. I am using the 6th 4th and 3rd from a very cheap set. I will try using the three lowest and see how that works. Really appreciate all the help.

P.S. Just for info, I am normally playing amplified (under-saddle piezo or disk piezo depending on mood) with the computer as the amp.

Permalink Reply by MichaelS Country Boy Guitars on November 19, 2010 at 4:52am

John, I am not an expert either, only been building and playing these less than a year. All mine are fretless and The more you play the better the sound will get, practice makes, well better anyway. The fingered note will never be as crisp or loud as the open note. Sometimes I mute the open note a bit so it sounds more like the fretted notes. I find it sounds best amped, but I play un-amped a lot, just because its easier to pick it up and play. To get the string height down try lowering at the nut first. If you lower the bridge to much with a fretless you will get a sitar like buzz from the fretted note at the nut end of the neck. This is from the string laying along the neck, buzzz. Sounds kind of neat, but hard to get it even down the neck. Good luck and have fun, I am. By the way, these are all things I've found thru trial and error, still working on my playing skills.

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