Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike on February 24, 2015 at 5:41pm

Do you think I would be better off to add another sound hole or two in a different location and if so where? Or am I best to leave it alone?

Thx

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Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on February 24, 2015 at 7:21pm

Form your own opinion, many many people around here have not explored all options, they just say 'this is what I do...'

There are a lot of cigar box guitar builders on this site who find one thing and stick to it.  Then there are some who often or always try alternate approaches.  This is complicated because by the time you've built it of course you think its awesome, it's one of your babies.  If you subsequently always follow similar methods/approaches/aesthetics then you may never actually be able to be objective about any of them..

On the other hand always trying new things will definitely affect productivity, Leo Fender didn't smash out 1000 Strats a month by screwing around second guessing himself.

There is no spoon, and words are wind.  Make it for yourself and find out ;)
PS in my humble opinion the primary function of a sound hole in a lute is not 'to let sound out'  this is preposterous, one side of the board which is singing is already on your side of that hole!!  (ports in the relatively stable sides is different) What they really do that matters is they alter the shape of (and the supporting structure behind) the soundboard.  The sink-cover cult will of course disagree entirely.  Again, its my opinion entirely; adding a big chunk of mass to the soundboard (sink drain cover, ick!, people saw this on dobros and nationals and thought 'oh boy thats cool!'   but dobros don't get their volume from a singing wooden top at all do they?...) entirely negates any benefits of cutting a hole in the first place...

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Permalink Reply by Mike on February 25, 2015 at 3:47am

Thanks. Lots to chew on. I am happy with the sound. It as you say, I have nothing to compare it to. I need to try out a few things. Thank you!

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Permalink Reply by Bad Finger (Eric) on February 25, 2015 at 3:50am

There is only one thing to do then.  Build another.  And another.  And another. Rinse.  Repeat.  :)

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Permalink Reply by Mike on February 25, 2015 at 3:55am

:)

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Permalink Reply by Mike on February 25, 2015 at 4:31pm

Thx and yes I think I will leave well enough alone and keep it as is. It sounds good and I don't want to mess around. And my wife will definitely tell me I have too many. If they were ladies shoes however, we have plenty of room in the house for those apparently. :)

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Permalink Reply by Scruggy on February 26, 2015 at 3:20am

ha love your last line!!

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Permalink Reply by Bad Finger (Eric) on February 25, 2015 at 3:27am

On the rigid side, I prefer a longer slot vs. round sound holes.Chamfering the edge so there's a sharper point on the outside leaves a nice finish that really doesn't need any trim.  If you are dissatisfied with the sound of your guitar like it is muffled, maybe consider cutting open the space between the 2 holes.

No one said these things have to be round with curtain grommets.

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Permalink Reply by Scruggy on February 25, 2015 at 1:27am

im a sucker for symitry acually a bit anal about it for me everything has to match so was thinking of soundhole on side facing and corresponding hole at the bottom! thinking might look better plus sound wont be trapped in one area like you said!

even though from what everyone seems to say and seeing im only playing myself there is little need for holes at all!

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Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on February 25, 2015 at 7:26pm

You are fully entitled to an opinion.  But your arguments do not in my opinion support your conclusion.

because they are largely ill informed / inaccurate...  (except for the part about them being an ornamentation, yup thats def true)

1. The ovation guitar has a fibreglass or carbon fibre bowl shaped back. There is some tiny pinch of merit in what you say, the bowl back is about driving energy forward again into the top where a conventional guitar would be designed to just get the back singing along too.  But the reason for its success was that they sound good plugged in and are less prone to feedback.  They did this by locking the sides and back down, so that only the top sings.  I do not recall anybody ever saying that they are as loud as (or as pleasing to the ears when not amplified) as a regular Martin style flattop.  Because they are not, and were not ever designed to be, they were designed to deliver a convincing sound when plugged up (and have a skinny neck to win over rockers).  They therefore did not 'prove' the things you suggest they did, they did not even set out to prove such things.  If they did and they succeeded as you say then they would have revolutionised the instrument, not just produced a fad and a couple years of Asian copies before pretty much fading into obscurity.  also, their top of the line 'Adamas' models feature the carved leafy thing with the 20 odd little holes but most bowlbacks have a single regular big ol hole under the strings.  The Adamas also featured CF layers in the soundboard in order to minimise traditional bracing and use a  soft, light and thin sitka spruce material (in a very expensive lamination process), so the fancy leafy thing can hardly be considered in isolation.   PS they are a by product of the parent company's experience and technological advancements in helicopters.  The guy (Charles Kaman) had some interesting ideas and loved guitars sure, but he did not make a career out of sound or designing the bowlbacks,. this is an absolute falsehood - he was a helicopter guy.  (it does sound like flowery bullshit from some marketing guys tho,  I'm not calling you a liar.  Just misled.)  Don't misunderstand me, I don't hate the Ovations, Breadwinners and Deacons are super cool, but you're selling a cow as a horse, they're a successful acoustic-electric hybrid thing for stadium rockers, not a successful acoustic guitar, they're not even a good acoustic guitar. And certainly not a loud or warm sounding one.

2.  Consider what I wrote, and what the Amati's and their Cremonese master contemporaries actually did:

They put their soundholes between the bridge and the closest, narrowest sides of the instrument.  Where the top meets the sides is where all the rigidity is, two perpendicular surfaces glued to a lining.  Think about where the sound comes from, the sweet spot area in the soundboard which is driven with energy from the strings.  Consider if those holes were not there and it ought be reasonably obvious that those closest rigid joins (sides) would impede the top singing, or reduce the size of the area of the top which sings.(thus driving the post and bass-bar)  Those soundholes decouple the most critical part of the soundboard from the limitations of those tight corners.   (why the F and not just a slot?? They have other functions, they point to where the bridge ought be, have a wider part right where you need it to get a tool in there and set the post, but these are for setting the sucker up and maintaining it. )

Now, consider a Martin: (the prototypical acoustic guitar that every guitar factory on the planet rips off)

This thing has an even nastier impediment to singing than kerfed lining and stiff sides at its edges, the fingerboard is glued right down onto the sucker!! (it may not be obvious in the violin pic, but neither the tailpiece nor the fingerboard impede the top)

So where do they put the hole?

NB I did not ever say that a sound hole does not affect the way energy (sound waves) leave the box.  Yes, you can run Helmholtz algorithms and tune em to some frequency or other as you can with the body as a whole, but their primary function in most lutes (if not to look cool or to lose picks in) is to mechanically decouple the top from stiffer components which are necessary for structural integrity, thereby maximising the area of the top which actually sings or the efficiency with which it sings.  Thats how you make the most out of a bit of energy driven into a thin plank of wood. 

the best.

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Permalink Reply by Bluesheart on February 25, 2015 at 3:20am

Dang Thumper, I got all excited a while back and wrote down my brilliant idea of putting soundholes on the side and using drawer pulls to direct the sound forward........................... I still think it is brilliant.

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Permalink Reply by Bad Finger (Eric) on February 25, 2015 at 3:33am

Here's another approach that works surprisingly well.  The next one I do will be wilder.

Like The Phrygian Kid says, this does nothing for productivity!  I'm very happy I don't log my hours when pricing my guitars.  It would be a crying shame.

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