Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Bob Harrison on December 15, 2010 at 12:16pm

Josh,
Your experience with one to many strokes with a spoke shave is why I’m building a copy carver. I have had to many to remember experiences like that. It has been my experience I would rather route close and complete the finished profile with a rasp then 60 course grit paper and progressive finer sand paper.
Cheers
Bob
Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:

Oh, dude.  You got no idea.  The one that still irks the shit out of me is the time I had a perfect neck in work.  I already had a few weeks worth of here and there work put into it.  It came down to the point where I was carving it out with a spoke shave.  Imagine my horror when I took one swipe too many and exposed the truss rod through the back end.  The whole thing was wasted and had to be thrown away (about sixty dollars worth of wood stock, not including the MOP inlay work I had done).  It's actually good that I took that one extra swipe that exposed it.  If I hadn't, I might have put that neck into a guitar and have the truss rod blow through the back end while being adjusted.

 

The best thing about that, though, is that I never made that mistake again.  Trust me on this: your screw ups are ten times more valuable to you than your successes, provided that you're prepared to view them with a constructive attitude.  When you mess something up, you probably learn ten or fifteen things about why what you did failed.  When you do something right, all you know is that what you did worked.  You don't learn very much at all.

 

If you want to make the killer stuff, you've got to slog through the mistakes first.  Look forward to them.  They turn you into a better guitar maker in the long run.

 

I pretty much feel the same way, Josh. It's just frustrating, though, to be a relative beginner at this, to work on a neck for 2 weeks in spare time, and then to ruin it in the span of 10 minutes.

Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:

Practice enough and you'll be able to make a six string neck far better than any premade thing you can buy. 

 

My take on the whole thing (taken from my web site):

 

"The problem with putting a premade neck onto a guitar is that you are no longer a guitar maker.  All you’re really doing is assembling a guitar.  No offense to anyone out there who does this but that’s really what it comes down to: skilled factory work.  When it comes to the feel of the instrument, how well it plays, and how well the musician connects with it; Jesus, all of these qualities are defined by the guitar neck.  They’re not influenced by the neck.  They ARE the neck.  If you buy a neck from somebody else and stick it on your body then it’s actually that person and not you who played the major role in making that guitar a success or failure.

 

However you want to cut it, I’m more impressed by the guy who slaps a poplar stick on a box with toothpick frets than I am with your authorized Fender replacement neck.  At least every part of that guitar will be indisputably his and not the skilled work of some CNC machine."

 

That being said, if you just want to get something made that you can play then for God's sake, do it whatever way you can and screw whatever people like me or anyone else might say.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by ProfWaldo on December 15, 2010 at 5:01pm

The difference between a novice and a master craftsman ?

The novice is busy tryin' not to make mistakes. While the master craftsman is busy, fixin' his.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Bob Harrison on December 15, 2010 at 5:43pm

ProfWaldo,

I like that saying. That’s one of the old Kentucky rifle gunsmith quotes. So I have been told, that’s one reason some old rifles had so many pretty brass inlays. To cover mistakes.

Cheers
Bob
ProfWaldo/Wally said:

The difference between a novice and a master craftsman ?

The novice is busy tryin' not to make mistakes. While the master craftsman is busy, fixin' his.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) on December 16, 2010 at 7:20am

That is certainly one way to do it (and I admire the ingenuity it takes to build a copy carver).  On the other hand, the cheaper alternative is to just buy a vernier caliper and check your works closely as you go to ensure that you're not getting close to exposing the truss rod.  Trust me.  I only ever made that mistake once in my life.

Bob Harrison said:

Josh,
Your experience with one to many strokes with a spoke shave is why I’m building a copy carver. I have had to many to remember experiences like that. It has been my experience I would rather route close and complete the finished profile with a rasp then 60 course grit paper and progressive finer sand paper.
Cheers
Bob
Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:

Oh, dude.  You got no idea.  The one that still irks the shit out of me is the time I had a perfect neck in work.  I already had a few weeks worth of here and there work put into it.  It came down to the point where I was carving it out with a spoke shave.  Imagine my horror when I took one swipe too many and exposed the truss rod through the back end.  The whole thing was wasted and had to be thrown away (about sixty dollars worth of wood stock, not including the MOP inlay work I had done).  It's actually good that I took that one extra swipe that exposed it.  If I hadn't, I might have put that neck into a guitar and have the truss rod blow through the back end while being adjusted.

 

The best thing about that, though, is that I never made that mistake again.  Trust me on this: your screw ups are ten times more valuable to you than your successes, provided that you're prepared to view them with a constructive attitude.  When you mess something up, you probably learn ten or fifteen things about why what you did failed.  When you do something right, all you know is that what you did worked.  You don't learn very much at all.

 

If you want to make the killer stuff, you've got to slog through the mistakes first.  Look forward to them.  They turn you into a better guitar maker in the long run.

 

I pretty much feel the same way, Josh. It's just frustrating, though, to be a relative beginner at this, to work on a neck for 2 weeks in spare time, and then to ruin it in the span of 10 minutes.

Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:

Practice enough and you'll be able to make a six string neck far better than any premade thing you can buy.

 

My take on the whole thing (taken from my web site):

 

"The problem with putting a premade neck onto a guitar is that you are no longer a guitar maker.  All you’re really doing is assembling a guitar.  No offense to anyone out there who does this but that’s really what it comes down to: skilled factory work.  When it comes to the feel of the instrument, how well it plays, and how well the musician connects with it; Jesus, all of these qualities are defined by the guitar neck.  They’re not influenced by the neck.  They ARE the neck.  If you buy a neck from somebody else and stick it on your body then it’s actually that person and not you who played the major role in making that guitar a success or failure.

 

However you want to cut it, I’m more impressed by the guy who slaps a poplar stick on a box with toothpick frets than I am with your authorized Fender replacement neck.  At least every part of that guitar will be indisputably his and not the skilled work of some CNC machine."

 

That being said, if you just want to get something made that you can play then for God's sake, do it whatever way you can and screw whatever people like me or anyone else might say.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gadsden Guitars on December 17, 2010 at 3:12pm

My first six stringer was for a very accomplished blues musician, when I delivered it to him, he said "that's the coolest f'en thing i've ever seen and proceeded to play the shit out of it for the next half hour. I was hooked. Then on my next six string endeavor, a build for myself finally, chicken head was born. Built with an e-bay Chinese made neck I scored for $38, then after collapsing the 6 in cone, which was one of three meant for a tri-cone reso, the thing sat around for months until I decided to try putting a 6 in aluminum pot lid in it from my third build, a three string reso. The result, a super bitchin' sounding, banjo/ acoustic guitar sounding  blues oooozing piece of heaven. However, I am building my own six string necks from now on, unless a customer specifies otherwise.

I think pre-made necks are great for when your starting out, there's plenty of other stuff to consider when your building your first few guitars.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by carverman on December 18, 2010 at 6:28am

Didn't know that Bob..(about the brass inlays on rifles)...I thought it was to make each on a work of the gunsmith's art..

similar to the luthiers art..and all that fancy mother of pearl inlaying..doesn't make the instrument play any better ..

or the rifle to shoot better..but it is sure "purty" to look at.   LOL!

 

As far as some other people saying..why do CBG makers have to insist on perfection in their builds....IMO it's to do

with your personal pride in workmanship, how much time you have to devote to it and what tools/skills you have

at hand.   For most in a hurry, as long as you can cobble a 3, 3 or 4 string together and make some kind of music

with it, that's satisfaction in itself..But..for some of us...we just gotta find out the wherefores and the whys and

try to push the boundaries in workmanship and creativity a little bit farther.

 

I've just finished carving my first 6 string home made neck and applying a few coats of varathane to it.

Now I'm working out the engineering details of a modifying and mounting an existing 6 string trapieze tail piece

on it and trying to integrate everything to come up with a decent action on my first one.

Mistakes..you betcha.   But, I'm documenting it as I go along and the next one will be much better..because

like all of us..I learn from my mistakes.

Bob Harrison said:

ProfWaldo,

I like that saying. That’s one of the old Kentucky rifle gunsmith quotes. So I have been told, that’s one reason some old rifles had so many pretty brass inlays. To cover mistakes.

Cheers
Bob
ProfWaldo/Wally said:

The difference between a novice and a master craftsman ?

The novice is busy tryin' not to make mistakes. While the master craftsman is busy, fixin' his.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Bob Harrison on December 18, 2010 at 8:18am

Carverman,
I like your thinking and attitude.
Cheers
Bob

carverman said:

Didn't know that Bob..(about the brass inlays on rifles)...I thought it was to make each on a work of the gunsmith's art..

similar to the luthiers art..and all that fancy mother of pearl inlaying..doesn't make the instrument play any better ..

or the rifle to shoot better..but it is sure "purty" to look at.   LOL!

 

As far as some other people saying..why do CBG makers have to insist on perfection in their builds....IMO it's to do

with your personal pride in workmanship, how much time you have to devote to it and what tools/skills you have

at hand.   For most in a hurry, as long as you can cobble a 3, 3 or 4 string together and make some kind of music

with it, that's satisfaction in itself..But..for some of us...we just gotta find out the wherefores and the whys and

try to push the boundaries in workmanship and creativity a little bit farther.

 

I've just finished carving my first 6 string home made neck and applying a few coats of varathane to it.

Now I'm working out the engineering details of a modifying and mounting an existing 6 string trapieze tail piece

on it and trying to integrate everything to come up with a decent action on my first one.

Mistakes..you betcha.   But, I'm documenting it as I go along and the next one will be much better..because

like all of us..I learn from my mistakes.

Bob Harrison said:

ProfWaldo,

I like that saying. That’s one of the old Kentucky rifle gunsmith quotes. So I have been told, that’s one reason some old rifles had so many pretty brass inlays. To cover mistakes.

Cheers
Bob
ProfWaldo/Wally said:

The difference between a novice and a master craftsman ?

The novice is busy tryin' not to make mistakes. While the master craftsman is busy, fixin' his.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on December 18, 2010 at 2:16pm

And there it is, well put!

carverman said:

Didn't know that Bob..(about the brass inlays on rifles)...I thought it was to make each on a work of the gunsmith's art.. similar to the luthiers art..and all that fancy mother of pearl inlaying..doesn't make the instrument play any better .. or the rifle to shoot better..but it is sure "purty" to look at.   LOL!

 

As far as some other people saying..why do CBG makers have to insist on perfection in their builds....IMO it's to do with your personal pride in workmanship, how much time you have to devote to it and what tools/skills you have at hand.   For most in a hurry, as long as you can cobble a 3, 3 or 4 string together and make some kind of music with it, that's satisfaction in itself..But..for some of us...we just gotta find out the wherefores and the whys and try to push the boundaries in workmanship and creativity a little bit farther.

 

I've just finished carving my first 6 string home made neck and applying a few coats of varathane to it. Now I'm working out the engineering details of a modifying and mounting an existing 6 string trapieze tail piece on it and trying to integrate everything to come up with a decent action on my first one.

Mistakes..you betcha.   But, I'm documenting it as I go along and the next one will be much better..because like all of us..I learn from my mistakes.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Bob Harrison on December 18, 2010 at 5:01pm

Josh,
The Dobro was the invention of the Dopyera brothers. The brothers assembled their world class guitars from parts that they purchased.

I know first hand for a fact that the Dopyera brothers would not agree with your assertion you have made here..

I first talked to one of the Dopyera brothers in 1968 in Flagstaff Music Center and again at the NAMM show in about 1972. They told me first hand they assembled many of the instruments from complete bodies made by the Harmony co.

The company bought parts from many other music manufacturers, which is why, according to resoguit.com, the parts of pre-World War II Dobros can be hard to identify. Most have metal parts made in California that are inside wood bodies made by Chicago companies like Harmony and Gibson.


It would appear that by the Dopyera brothers assembling parts they did not make, did not hurt their instruments any. So history has shown.

Cheers

Bob

Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:

Practice enough and you'll be able to make a six string neck far better than any premade thing you can buy. 

 

My take on the whole thing (taken from my web site):

 

"The problem with putting a premade neck onto a guitar is that you are no longer a guitar maker.  All you’re really doing is assembling a guitar.  No offense to anyone out there who does this but that’s really what it comes down to: skilled factory work.  When it comes to the feel of the instrument, how well it plays, and how well the musician connects with it; Jesus, all of these qualities are defined by the guitar neck.  They’re not influenced by the neck.  They ARE the neck.  If you buy a neck from somebody else and stick it on your body then it’s actually that person and not you who played the major role in making that guitar a success or failure.

 

However you want to cut it, I’m more impressed by the guy who slaps a poplar stick on a box with toothpick frets than I am with your authorized Fender replacement neck.  At least every part of that guitar will be indisputably his and not the skilled work of some CNC machine."

 

That being said, if you just want to get something made that you can play then for God's sake, do it whatever way you can and screw whatever people like me or anyone else might say.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by ProfWaldo on December 18, 2010 at 7:17pm

Bob Harrison said:

ProfWaldo,
I like that saying. That’s one of the old Kentucky rifle gunsmith quotes. So I have been told, that’s one reason some old rifles had so many pretty brass inlays. To cover mistakes.

Cheers
Bob
ProfWaldo/Wally said:

The difference between a novice and a master craftsman ?

The novice is busy tryin' not to make mistakes. While the master craftsman is busy, fixin' his.

 

Bob, When I was about 12 yrs. old I made a major mistake on a project I was working on with my granpa. He said to me, You'll be a good craftsman when you learn to fix your F%#$ups. I thought to myself,"What? I thought good craftsman didn't make mistakes" I didn't figure out till quite some time later what he'd meant by his qoutation. Oh yeah, and not so fast buddy, I put a lot of mental perspiration into my version of what my granpa said n' I ain't givin' the rights away to some hack wood butcher from over a hundred years ago. ha-ha-ha ;o) Having said that, I'm sure there's many variations on this but I haven't heard them. But this one, is mine damn-it. ;o)

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) on December 18, 2010 at 7:29pm

The statement that you have made does not prove or disprove my assertion.  You said, "It would appear that by the Dopyera brothers assembling parts they did not make, did not hurt their instruments any. So history has shown."

My argument isn't that you can do better business if you're carving things out yourself.  You would actually do worse because everything bottlenecks around how fast you can work.  The practice of assembling guitars from premade parts sure seems to have worked well for Fender and any other mega corporation that has all their stuff churned out in Mexico and Korea as well.

My original assertion still stands.  If you have assembled a guitar out of premade parts then the success of that guitar didn't originate with you, even if the neck is perfect and everything came out just right.

I once had a guy who spent 20 years of his life working at Fender say that he didn't think it was possible for a hand carved neck to be so perfect after he held and played one of my instruments.  Think how much less that would have meant if someone else had actually carved the neck and all I did was slap it in a box?

Stand a six string cbg with a fine made neck in front of someone and wait for them to ask the inevitable "Did you make the neck as well?"  They want to know if you did it.  If it came from your hands and your skill.  I've had it both ways where it was a premade neck and where it was one of my own.  I can tell you from first hand that the impact is always increased 10 fold when they realize that I'm the guy who did it.

As I stated before.  If you've managed to carve out your own neck (be it 3 string, 4 string, 1 string, or 6), even if it is blocky and clumsy with a slight twist and buzzing frets, I'm still 100 times more impressed than I am with an assembled guitar that just about anyone could have glued together, regardless of what anyone says, be they Leo Fender, Paul Reed Smith, or Antonio Stradivari.  You could stand the inventor of the world's first guitar in front of me and have him tell me different and you know what I'd tell him?

 

Nuts.

Bob Harrison said:

Josh,
The Dobro was the invention of the Dopyera brothers. The brothers assembled their world class guitars from parts that they purchased.

I know first hand for a fact that the Dopyera brothers would not agree with your assertion you have made here..

I first talked to one of the Dopyera brothers in 1968 in Flagstaff Music Center and again at the NAMM show in about 1972. They told me first hand they assembled many of the instruments from complete bodies made by the Harmony co.

The company bought parts from many other music manufacturers, which is why, according to resoguit.com, the parts of pre-World War II Dobros can be hard to identify. Most have metal parts made in California that are inside wood bodies made by Chicago companies like Harmony and Gibson.


It would appear that by the Dopyera brothers assembling parts they did not make, did not hurt their instruments any. So history has shown.

Cheers

Bob

Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:

Practice enough and you'll be able to make a six string neck far better than any premade thing you can buy.

 

My take on the whole thing (taken from my web site):

 

"The problem with putting a premade neck onto a guitar is that you are no longer a guitar maker.  All you’re really doing is assembling a guitar.  No offense to anyone out there who does this but that’s really what it comes down to: skilled factory work.  When it comes to the feel of the instrument, how well it plays, and how well the musician connects with it; Jesus, all of these qualities are defined by the guitar neck.  They’re not influenced by the neck.  They ARE the neck.  If you buy a neck from somebody else and stick it on your body then it’s actually that person and not you who played the major role in making that guitar a success or failure.

 

However you want to cut it, I’m more impressed by the guy who slaps a poplar stick on a box with toothpick frets than I am with your authorized Fender replacement neck.  At least every part of that guitar will be indisputably his and not the skilled work of some CNC machine."

 

That being said, if you just want to get something made that you can play then for God's sake, do it whatever way you can and screw whatever people like me or anyone else might say.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by ProfWaldo on December 18, 2010 at 7:47pm

I say do whatever the hell ya' want. If ya' feel the need for more satisfaction and makin' your own neck gives you that then I say, by all means do it. If ya' wanna' use an old neck or a new one for any reason what so ever..., it's always YOUR choice.

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