Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by East Texas Tramps on May 20, 2010 at 3:43am

thinking is a bad idea, i strongly suggest you not do it.

but, if you leave the safe little world of the cigar box nation, you can find plenty of examples of people stretching the limitations of the instrument. your post is exactly why i think this place is backwards as-all-get-out. only boring people sound boring.

who am i?

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Permalink Reply by Nathan King on May 20, 2010 at 3:57am

I agree, it can get boring in the wrong hands... but Metallica said it, too: "Boredom sets into the boring mind"

East Texas Tramps said:

only boring people sound boring.

Boring players play boring music, not the other way around. Look at people like Hubert Sumlin (Smokestack Lightnin, anyone?) or shoot, just about any of them North Miss Hill Country bluesmen. They knew how to play a song around a ONE CHORD vamp and keep it interesting, if not outright damned compelling.

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Permalink Reply by Crow on May 20, 2010 at 4:06am

@ nathan king

you made me LOL!

you quoted metallica!! LMAO! from the black album, "struggle within" i think!

but yes, you're right. it's the ARTIST that is boring.

i'll have to look up smokestack lightnin, thanks for the direction!!

Nathan King said:

I agree, it can get boring in the wrong hands... but Metallica said it, too: "Boredom sets into the boring mind"

East Texas Tramps said:

only boring people sound boring.

Boring players play boring music, not the other way around. Look at people like Hubert Sumlin (Smokestack Lightnin, anyone?) or shoot, just about any of them North Miss Hill Country bluesmen. They knew how to play a song around a ONE CHORD vamp and keep it interesting, if not outright damned compelling.

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Permalink Reply by Hip Bone Bellaire on May 20, 2010 at 4:18am

I've thought this for a while myself............. BUT don't the STONES play in open tunings?

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Permalink Reply by colin mcgrath on May 20, 2010 at 4:26am

I am in agreement with you crow, e.t.t. and nathan. The only thing that i feel makes my music boring (bad) is my lack of skill and confidence at the moment, but i am working on getting a little better at least.

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Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on May 20, 2010 at 4:27am

Well, I don't know if you are referring to me, but I understand what you are saying. Here are a few thoughts:

First a quick story:

I went to see John Lee Hooker many years ago. After the show, I was talking to the bass player, and asked, you mainly play in E and A. He said, what do you have fuckin' perfect pitch? Those are the keys John plays in! He took my comment as an insult. I just wanted to confirm the keys.

Many Folk and Blues songs are in one key. Unless you are a good singer, your range in limited to a few keys. In performance, I agree, too many songs in one key causes a problem. Those three chords get beaten to death. Changing tuning after two songs definitely adds interest.

If you play in open G for example, arranging songs in the key of D works out well, because the 5 chord (A) is at the second fret. Using moveable chords, makes any key possible regardless of tuning.

Everything being relative, I know there are musicians with much better skills than me and the ability to arrange more creative and interesting arrangements, but playing on the street has proven that what I do, listeners find entertaining and interesting. So, I feel it has some merit. Regardless, who do you play the guitar for? Yourself or others. It is nice to be complimented and okay to get negative constructive comments too, but to be true to yourself and your art, you always go your own way. This is what you are doing too.

In closing I would simply say, listen to Robert Johnson's recordings. The songs are only in a few keys and many of the ideas are very similar from song to song. I would go as far to say, some are exactly the same licks but in another tuning. Stepping away from this, you go into the world of ragtime, jazz, etc. It is no longer that simple rural blues.

I think it is a good thing you want to step beyond the boundries and explore progressively. I just think you see this limitation in others and think it is a problem. Really it is not.

I just find it difficult to understand, why good players like yourself, find it necessary to be hard on other players. You are well loved. Just keep playing.

BTW:
I love the simplity of your builds. Amazing how much tone you get out of a cardboard box.

Enjoy, Keni Lee

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Permalink Reply by Crow on May 20, 2010 at 4:39am

@ hip bone bellaire
stones playing in open tunings? sure they do.

keith richards has been playing in open G since the 80s or so, from what i've read, and in other open tunings even before that.

but keith richards is not noodling around in the open tuning, using the same open chord and key for every song. every song has good chord structure, with key changes solid dynamics.

the stones is a fine example of WHAT to LOOK FOR in open-tuned playing - they use it to thier advantage, because the scales fit their playing style better in an open tuning.

however, they are not slaves to the open notes, and every song does not sound the same. they capo their guitars to set it in different keys, and use chords effectively. they do not linger, up and down, on one string, continually.

beast of burden - key of E, chorus in A, uses a C#m as well..
brown sugar -key of C, chorus in G
wild horses - key of Bm, chorus in Am, G in the intro

they may use open tunings, but their songs are not repetitive, nor even in the same keys.

again, they're a prime example of GOOD use of open tunings. some really great songs came from these guys.

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Permalink Reply by Crow on May 20, 2010 at 4:54am

@ keni lee burgess

i would honestly be *horrified* if you felt my comment was aimed at you. you're one of the best CBG guys on the net. your talent and knowledge of tuning is simply unmatched.. and the best part is that you SHARE it all with us through your videos. your lengthy explanations about tunings and string arrangements are a shining example of all that is good in this community!!!!!

really, that's the part that i love the most, making videos and sharing what we've found. your videos have helped me reign in difficult concepts SEVERAL times when considering tuning.

and i -am- a little ashamed for starting this post. i try very hard to keep my image a very positive one. i end all my videos with a smile and encouragement, and i strongly resist the urge to make smart remarks or to be "hard" on other players.

you have shamed me keni, and i deserve it a little.

i hope you understand my intent was not to be harsh on players, really more to vent a general frustration.
i missed breakfast this morning. i'll eat something and come back.

thanks so much for your praise. both shame and praise from a guy like you means a lot to little old me.

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Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on May 20, 2010 at 5:43am

And Led Zep? And most all good bluesmen.

-WY

Hip Bone Bellaire said:

I've thought this for a while myself............. BUT don't the STONES play in open tunings?

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Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on May 20, 2010 at 5:49am

For me, its not the open keys or even the same 'ol 12-bar blues (assuming you mean blues as an open keyed playable style), but rather the singer and the song. I'm not dissing Robert Johnson, But his melodies sound similar. His songs are quite different tho. Same with Blind Boy Fuller (my fave). He has a handful of melodies that he plays plays and even very similar starts, turns, bridges, endings, embellishments, etc. that each has that makes the song unique in its own.

Also open tuning makes slide much easier .

Single note/key/chord songs aren't uncommon but its really what you do with it that intrigues me.

$.02

-WY

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Permalink Reply by Michael Gajeski on May 20, 2010 at 6:01am

The key is not the important thing. Like kenny said, most people do not have a large vocal range and are limited to a few keys by their voice. What the human ear picks up usually isn't the chords themselves, but the relationship between the chords and notes being played. This is why progressions are labeled as I-IV-V, or I-III-IV, etc. We hear whether a chord is major or minor, or if we are playing in a different mode but the key itself is not important. The personality that we give to our music is much more subtle than that. If all it took was a key change to make interesting music, I think it would have been well know by this point.

Your comments could have been seen as condescending, but anyone that knows you from this site knows that that was not your intention. I don't think you have to worry about that. I do think that you opened us up for a good discussion on what exactly makes interesting music interesting.

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Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on May 20, 2010 at 6:14am

So Keni,

I sing like a spanked cat with turpentine poured on its ass*, so finding a key is prolly the best thing I can do. How would one go about finding 'their key'. I know popular songs I can sing to (in my own -- special way) and I can find out those keys. But is there a 'secret' to that?

-WY

* which sounds a lot like Yoko Ono if I recall.

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