Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on June 25, 2011 at 2:19pm

I very much hear you on the epiphiny Keni, and I find what you propose most interesting!

Now as for myself, I am finding the transition from the old school Spanish guitar tunings and scales I have known all my life to anything else to be a rocky road. I really felt starting with the 3 string 151 tuning thing would be a piece of cake. No, I feel like I am trying to learn French! My brain is so wrapped around the old boxes, positions and patterns I have known for decades, I just cant seem to adjust.  Learned a little basic mandolin a few years ago, thought I was going to be ok with that. Oh it gets worse, lets take a short cut to the point....... My dear and amazing wife bought me a genuine 5 string Banjo. Something I have coveted forever. Now I will admit right off, the Scruggs roll isnt happening. My brain and hands just arent wired that way and I accept that! I just want to learn some basic folk style strumming and maybe adapt toward some old frailing stuff. Man it makes my head hurt. So I am thinking four strings at this point for educational and transitional purposes. I do NOT want to be stuck in this three chord guitar shuffle forever.

So Keni my friend, what do you suppose I do with your proposal and that mess of thoughts? LOL!

P.S. A boat load of Belgian beer is not a problem.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on June 26, 2011 at 11:22am

Hello Mark,

Well, I have not played regularly in standard tuning for decades now. It is all open tuning for me.

I discovered like I believe we discussed, understanding the relationship between strings (intervals) is the key to looking at Spanish and Vestapol tuning in a comprehensible light. Also, reducing the various keys to their major scale numerical tones makes it easier to visualize.

The banjo is tuned open G (gDGbd / 15135)

My three string is tuned GDg (151) or ADf# (513)

You can see these intervals are the same on the CBG and the Banjo.

So in fact, the 4 string banjo (dADf# / 1513) is exactly like the 5 string (gDGbd / 15135), but it is missing the high 5 tone and playing in the key of D instead of standard G! So much for reinventing the wheel. LOL

The moveable chord method I teach on CD 6 is not something I invented either, but simply applied to meet my needs. Although, it works out real sweet in my opinion. The arrangements work out very neatly and sound wonderful.

So of course this approach, will work great on 5 string banjo too, like it will work on the 4 string banjo I envision. Considering you can play in the keys of D,E,A, and A quite easily if you change the drone tuning, it makes for a versatile little instrument.

Banjo does require different picking patterns if you want to approach it in the Bluegrass style, but I basically use my regular alternating bass method from the guitar.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRmhVsd2404&feature=channel_video_title

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsWcvh10w1Y&feature=channel_video_title

 

I think if you consider taking the "backward step" like I did to better understand music, you will free yourself from any pattern style playing and simply hear and see the notes you need. Basically really trying to understand how music works.

I hope you find this information helpful and as always feel free to write if I can further clearify what I said or be of any further assistance.

Thank you for your response. Enjoy your practice and the beer too, Keni Lee

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Clock The Wolf on June 26, 2011 at 1:11pm

?!?!?! Now my brain hurts... : (

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on June 26, 2011 at 1:33pm

Hello Clockwork,

Have you tried a good Belgium beer. Usually does the trick for me. If it doesn't work, try a second one. LOL

So, what made your brain hurt? I would be interested in your input. Enjoy, Keni Lee   

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Clock The Wolf on June 26, 2011 at 1:56pm

Alcohol, music theory, banjos, and Nancy Grace make my brain hurt... I love your cd, by the way... and I haven't touched standard tuning even once in nearly 25 years(stupid high school music teacher nearly ruined music for me).

Have you ever used DGD tuning? I use it occasionally.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on June 27, 2011 at 12:04am

Thank you CLOCKWORK for your response. I understand. I am definitely a theory Geek. I am basically just using some fundamental ideas, but in my study it has made me a better player. I simply use it to explore the fingerboard or better understand the things I already know.  

My High School guitar teacher was a trumpet player. He knew music, but could not play guitar. His method of teaching you to tune your guitar, was to take your guitar, spin the tuners around, hand it back to you, give you an E note off the piano once, and say okay, tune it! Give me a break! Worse class I ever had. He made music a bad chore. 

There are so many ways to tune and play CBG. I mainly tend to tune 151 or GDG, DAD...etc. Tuning to a partial or full major chord.

The way you are tuning DGD is another good approach, 141, Key of D, is a very common tuning for renaissance period music and middle eastern styles.  If you look at it another way, 515, Key of G is the bottom half of the full six string Open G tuning ("DGD"gbd).

Enjoy your practice and thanks for sharing, Keni Lee       

CLOCKWORK said:

Alcohol, music theory, banjos, and Nancy Grace make my brain hurt... I love your cd, by the way... and I haven't touched standard tuning even once in nearly 25 years(stupid high school music teacher nearly ruined music for me).

Have you ever used DGD tuning? I use it occasionally.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Bad Finger (Eric) on June 27, 2011 at 1:36am

 Interesting idea Keni and thanks for sharing.  I think I now have a good reason to go get myself one of those octagon boxes I've seen on my local tobacconist's cart.  I'm considering a banjo-ish build with a paint can lid for guitar #7. . .If I can finish #5 and #6 first.  Lately, most of my time has been breaking big rocks into small rocks and determining how many tons of stone, sand, and rubble I can move without falling over (building a new front patio and front walk to the house).  A good beer or several helps.  :)

 

I always appreciate your tips and advice.  Maybe one of these days I'll get through your CD#1 I bought last winter.  At this rate, by the time I get up to #6, you will be on release #199.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on June 27, 2011 at 3:18am

Thank you for your comments E D. Please keep me posted. I am very interested in seeing and hearing how this 4 string banjo using the dADf# tuning works out. As far as more instructional CDs, I plan to return to the 6 string again soon and work on my Gospel song arrangements in Open D for CD 7. Although, I enjoy making the instructional videos, they take up a lot of my free time. I am looking forward to going on vacation soon to Cape Cod and enjoying a few hours everyday just busking on the streets. Enjoy, Keni Lee    

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on June 27, 2011 at 6:24am

First let me let me appologize, my response wasnt very clear. Maybe the red flag should be that I know better than to post after margaritas in the hot tub.

I agree with everything said, and I am working on the suggested "step back and start over theory" pretty hard. I hear you loud and clear on that. Ive been studying everything I can get my hands on and trying very hard to understand the various relationships. Trying to find an area of focus! The relationships between various open tunings and instruments is coming into focus slowly. If I can just keep putting together in my brain things like the similarity of a GDG being a portion of the four or five or six string open tunings that are related..... and mentally expand on that understanding....... and make more time for practice.

Anyway what I was trying to get at is that for me, I think that eliminating the drone string altogether until I make some basic progress may be a good learning tool for banjo (or banjo like) learning. But I like the idea you have proposed.

I have and use several Keni Lee instructional CD's and highly recommend them. I will soon have all 6. Heres a tip I have learned. Make shure the shuffle function is turned off on your media player. Dramatically reduces the confusion level!

 

Have fun!

Mark

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on June 29, 2011 at 12:43am

Thank you for your comments Mark.

In this video, I am using the Open D tuning (ADf#) and the movable chord method to create this arrangement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDmNWRrXbns

Then using the same approach, I applied it to this part of the full 6 string tuning (D"ADf#"ad) to create this arrangment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLycajdnlgU

I believe a banjo utilizing this same Open D tuning (dADf#) which again is a part of the full 6 string tuning ("DADf#"ad) will continue the approach. Appling the movable chord method and alternating the drone d string and the low A, with the addition of partial chord work (doublestops) and single note lead lines worked out on the two highest strings will make it possible to create some nice arrangements.

So, if you decide to do a deep exploration of Open D, it would work out like this:

3 string (DAd) See CD 1 and CD 4 (Same fingerings but different key)

4 string (ADf#a) See CD 6 for the ADf# movable chord method. 

4 string Banjo (dADf#)

5 string banjo (dADf#a) Strung totally diifferent than a standard bluegrass banjo. I have never tried this but sounds very interesting.

6 string (DADf#ad) Stadard Open D

If you wanted, you could choose to approach it utilizing open G tuning too:

3 string (GDg) See CD 4 

4 string (Dgbd) See CD 5

4 string banjo (gDgb) Same fingerings as above dADf# but different key. 

5 string (gDgbd) Standard bluegrass

6 string (DGDgbd) Standard Open G

There are so many options! 

Enjoy your practice, Keni Lee

  

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on June 30, 2011 at 5:47am

You gotta love this guy, no matter what he takes the time to try to help. And this time 10 possibilities and 2 examples. Awesome Keni!

Myself, I'll do some messing around and see what seems to click for me, and get back to this subject.

What I had in mind to try was a four string banjo, no drone- (which I ignorantly thought was what a four string banjo was)...... ADf#a. Odd, but it could be interesting I think.

• ▶ Reply