Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Clock The Wolf on May 27, 2012 at 1:00am

Here is a 3 string + bass string by Ted Crocker:

 And here's one by Bluesboy Jag:

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Permalink Reply by Sik Yeti on May 27, 2012 at 3:48am

That is awesome, Is there a name for this type of CBG? I want to find a video of one being played.

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Permalink Reply by Brian Hunt on May 27, 2012 at 8:32am

Moreland and Arbuncle uses a cigar box guitar with a bass string. In this design, it is common to use one pickup for the bass string that goes to an output jack for a bass amp and a pickup for the 3 regular guitar strings that goes to an output jack for a regular guitar amp.

all the best.

Brian Hunt.

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Permalink Reply by Clock The Wolf on May 27, 2012 at 11:33am

I should note that the four screw heads under the strings on the Bluesboy Jag build are actually the poles for magnetic pickups.

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Permalink Reply by jim on May 27, 2012 at 8:20pm

Hi, im jim

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Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on May 27, 2012 at 9:47pm

no, hes not

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Permalink Reply by Mark on May 29, 2012 at 12:45am

Phrygian Kid, I'm sure the quality of your work will bring you rewards, whether or not it turns out that you can sustain a patent.

I have to say though, I think BenBob has made some valid points about the history of partial fretting. I believe various arrangements of diatonic partial frets were found on renaissance citterns. And the evidence of the kabosy suggests that partial fret systems also have roots in african music. And, as you note, there have been modern partial fret systems aimed at addressing intonation and microtonal tunings. I'm not challenging that the particular arrangement of frets as show in the "dewey's neck" and "king of sticks" photos is something you've developed on your own, but what's still not clear is what aspect of it is patentable. It can't be partial frets, it can't be diatonic spacing, so I'm keen to see the full explanation as set out in the patent.

I really don't mean to be overly negative here. It's just that so-called "intellectual property" law is a bit of a hobby horse of mine (coming in part from being a former journalist with an interest in technology issues). I've spent quite a bit of time researching the very real problems arising in the world today as a result of IP law getting out of hand, so I tend to get twitchy when I see even small things that bother me. Patents, copyright and trademarks have wrongly become a weapon used to impede competition and create monopolies. In amongst all this, people sometimes forget the original purpose and justifications for these measures and the limits that were supposed to be placed on their scope. A small ray of light is still cast occasionally when courts do sometimes throw out patents - grounds for which often include the prior existence of similar concepts. I'm not suggesting Phrygian Kid is like Apple trying to shut down Samsung, I think he's just trying to get some due recognition and reward for hard work. I'm just saying let's be cautious here...especially as we're working in a field (cigar box instruments) that is rooted in the folk tradition, which is bound up with the process of successive generations giving a new twist to inherited ideas.

I wish you well in your endeavours but just remember that getting a patent is not always what people think it is.

Finally, (going back to the original topic of this thread) an additional note on citterns - these commonly had strings in four or five courses as well as being diatonically fretted. So Sik Yeti's thoughts about a 4-string with diatonic fretting are well grounded.

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Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on May 29, 2012 at 2:58am

I've been reading this thread. Quite a lively conversation. Phrygian Kid can you briefly explain how your fretting system works. I am at a lost to fully understand it and the advantages. As for working in Open D, by now most of you are aware, I have made a pretty intense study of it. When I first started playing in it, it was mainly limited by own lack of musical theory. As I studied and applied, it opened up more and more. Of course, it is limited as far as playing in "all keys" go on the tradtional 6 string tuning, but limiting myself to just the 513 triad tuning on CBG, a complete system of movable chords is easily applied and key limitations are not a problem. I find any research or develop in these areas fasinating and I appreciate your discussion. Thank you for your consideration, Keni Lee

BTW: There is a Russian school of classical guitar (7 string) using this Open G tuning: DGBDgbd. The arrangements span all keys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZKCU5ipdNE&feature=player_embedded      

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Permalink Reply by BenBob on May 29, 2012 at 6:59am

Keni have you tried your "devil tuning" as a re-entrant? It would be exactly like strings 2-4 of a ukulele, putting the root in the bass.

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Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on June 1, 2012 at 7:32am

Hi KLB.  In a nutshell, its an instrument which only has seven triads.  Total..  1 to 7, i to vii.  there are no accidentals and no modality (diminished, minor, major, augmented)  the neck takes care of it all for you.  its like the first automatic transmission for a guitar.  (or if you like, you might consider a strummer a more primitive one, then its not the first, but its a quantum leap in the technology, perhaps like comparing the auto transmission in a toyota, with 45 moving parts with one in a BMW which has over 350 moving parts)  It does have limits yes, dead right. but it also addresses limits in the player and thats where it shines.  It is capable of producing complex harmonic movements pretty much on its own.

I regret if people consider me arrogant and conceited, but it is what it is.  And theyre right, I have my moments. If I hadnt felt the idea was under attack I would have quit at entry one and it'd just be ooh look at the pictures. :)  All i can say is any time one of you guys does something that has a couple phd musics doing backflips I will be congratulating and encouraging, not trying to shut you down.  and if i dont understand it, im man enough to admit it, just as you are.  thanks mate

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Permalink Reply by Keni Lee Burgess on June 1, 2012 at 11:01am

Thank you for replying. Not sure I'm clear yet. So, it is not the triads: 1Major 2minor  3minor 4Major 5Major 6minor 7Dim 8Major of the Major scale? What 7 triads is it? All major like C D E F G A B C with one finger? What does it give you? What is the advantage? I'm not concerned about any of the usual politcal BS that goes on here...just trying to understand. Thanks again, Keni Lee    

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Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on June 1, 2012 at 11:20am

no, you are spot on. in the ionian mode i-vii will indeed voice MAJ, min, min, MAJ, MAJ min, dim, repeat..

but to the player they are all the same, just a triad, a shape. the instrument harmonises the third on your behalf.  similarly if you want to add a 7 you neednt concern yourself if the 7th is dom or maj, the instrument takes care of it for you, its just a shape you apply.  A finger barred right across is the main shape, but there are a couple of inverting shape i call +3 and +4.. so if you take the open strings and call that i, then apply the +3 modification you have (an inversion of) a iv chord.  if you apply the +3 to your finger when its  barred across at a iii chord you got (3 + iii =) vi chord.  etc.  its very very simple to learn and play, takes only one lesson.  a All of this is in truth possible on a strumstick, but you dont have enuff strings and the perfect 5th is too much reach for most human hands to pull off all inversions.  If you look at those pics and ignore the first string its just a strumstick with only two frets split per octave, thats just overcoming the one little shortcoming in dulcis with the little chromatic run of 4 they put at the end of the octave there.  but the shifting thirds does lift it to an entirely new arena in terms of what is in reach of the human hand, and particularly a human hand which is impaired.

id love to send you one of these necks some time klb, i think a few minutes with it and you'd love it.  but yeah for someone like you or i, its more a teaching aid or composition tool, leads you to exciting new things that you probably wouldnt find otherwise, and its great for getting complex harmonic ideas across to students, particularly when you add a $5 chinese capo :)

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