Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on October 31, 2010 at 6:08pm

This video, provided by Back Porch Mojo is a basic guide to sawing for frets with basic tools.

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on October 31, 2010 at 6:09pm

This one, also from Back Porch Mojo, shows a method for using a table saw with a narrow slotting blade and a basic jig set up.

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on October 31, 2010 at 6:11pm

This video is a guide to using the manual saw and fretting jig available from Stewmac. This is an elaborate setup and many may find it a little pricey. But the video may still contain tips and ideas that may help somebody.

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on November 3, 2010 at 6:13am

Fret board layout

There has been a number of discussions about this here on the Nation over time, unfortunately they end up spread out all over the place. I started this group in an attempt to create a place to answer these FAQ's and post tips on this subject in a common location, but then realized Ben had already started a group that covered this fairly well, so at this point it would make more sense to refer further questions and comments beyond these basic tips on this to that area.

http://www.cigarboxnation.com/group/scalelengthsetc

*I have eliminated the separate thread on this and condensed it into this one.

If you are going to build a fretted neck, first you must determine the scale length. This is the distance from the nut (guitar "body" side) to the bridge.


Next decide on a scale. (Chromatic, Diatonic etc.)


Finally the fret positions must be layed out and marked.


Here is a link to some discussion on this topic at stewmac.com



http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Fretting/i-3411.html


You can calculate your positions with any calculator you prefer, or you can copy off an existing fret board. (Remember that the scale length must be the same as the instrument you copy from!)

Or you may want to purchase a fret scale layout ruler if you are using a standard scale length. It is probably a good investment if you arent confident in making the calculations or are building a number of necks.

Here is a video provided by Nation member Crow that shows his method of calculating and laying out the fret board. Many may have missed it since it has been kinda tucked away in a corner here.
Thanks to Crow!

Permalink Reply by carverman on November 15, 2010 at 1:34am

I was watching the videos with some interest. Up to now, I've just ordered preslotted FBs from
S-M on my 6 string builds, because it does require some accuracy in measurements and sawing
slots for proper fret placement.

Like a lot of people out there, we would like to have the cadillac system (LMI jig as shown in
the video) but most of us can't afford the cost for "one-offs".

The second method showing how a fret scale can be measured out and calculated is very interesting,
but requires close attention to marking and calculation (using .9439 as the common denominator)
in determining the next fret location..and then you need a very sharp pencil tip as well.
S-M in the link above mention that if you are off as much as 5thousands of an inch in marking
and sawing, the frets can be off as much as an 1/8 of an inch in at the 22fret. Ok, most CBG builds
are not going to have 22 frets, but it just goes to show that any errors can add up quickly, if
not checked in time.

I've ordered a preslotted FB from S-M along with their depth adjustable fret saw on my
first 6 string cbg build. I'm planning on using that as my guide for marking and cutting
using some kind of home made miter box with an index pin.

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on November 15, 2010 at 7:54am

I agree Carverman, that the measurement and calculation should be done from the nut each time to reduce tolerance stack-up issues. I also would recommend a flat rule instead of the taped on tape measure personally. But Crow has been so kind as to share his method, and I felt it was a worth while addition, even if I would do it differently.
I hope to add some more tips and methods as soon as I get caught up on some other things.
Thanks for your thoughts!

Permalink Reply by carverman on December 1, 2010 at 12:53am

So I got a fret saw and blade depth stop from Stew-Mac. Now I'm working on designing my own
indexing mitre jig. I have a pre-slotted Stew-Mac FB as a guide and thinking of making a double
mitre jig, where the blank FB I'm slotting will fit snuggly in one trough and the pre-slotted FB
right next to it. Both would be clamped and once the pre-set depth saw blade lines up
with the pre-slotted FB groove, I can saw the blank to the correct depth and at the correct
measurement.

Anybody have any other ideas. I'm using the preslotted FB as a measurement guide only.
I have my own hardwood 1/4 thick FB that I want to make duplicates of.
For the mitre box vertical sections, I was thinking of cutting each wall into two and then screwing
each piece to the bottom allowing for a tighter blade guide (two of these), and then using
aluminum adjustable plates to fit tighter against the blade portion of the fret saw, but not
the teeth or the plastic depth guage attached to the saw.

The back of the saw would not go into the blade slot and would sit across the top of the two
vertical fences.

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on December 1, 2010 at 1:14am

If I am picturing what you describe acurately, I think it would work fine.

Using a square as a guide as shown in the back porch mojo video and seen elsewhere is a functional solution for the occasional or one off fret sawing operation, with care and a good eye you can get fine results that way. but if you do it more often, and want to do it with more speed and consistency, a miter box arrangement is a good step up.

There are several possible variations, although if one was contemplating doing this regularly, the Stew-mac box and indexing rig as presented in their how-to videos is probably a good way to go. I think they have, or Luthiers mercantile has a less elaborate miter box set-up that at a bit more reasonable cost for the occasional user. Building your own jig is a reasonable option as well, if well thought out it could be a rival to any of the above options.

Heres one possible variation for DIY'rs. How about a basic home made or basic miter box as you describe, and use the pre-sawn fingerboard as a guide similar to your description, but instead two-face tape it to the bottom of the fingerboard you want to saw and rig your miter box with a small steel pin in its base that is .023" in diam. where it protrudes and engages and indexes the slots of the pre-sawn fingerboard, which is face down in the miter?

Is my description making sense? (Wish I had a picture handy.)

Permalink Reply by carverman on December 1, 2010 at 10:13am

Interesting idea you have... Mark ..(with the index pin).
I 've made one out pine and screws, using the stew-macfret saw and the acrylic depth stop attachment. I would love to be able to justify the expense
of their mitre box and indexing scales, but for a one off (or two) it's just too much of an investment for a hobbyist.

What I have come up with is a 5.5 inch wide base with 1.5 inch H 3/4"T pine "rails" ,
and cut in to fit the saw and the width of the depth stop attached.
The blank is is between one set of rails and< the preslotted FB is between the other set of rails. Both can slide and both are connected at the end with an aluminum bracket,
and countersunk screws, so that there is no slippage.

All I have to do is set the fret saw in the fret, clamp both FB and saw the blank, which will be slightly higher, so I don't keep resawing the preslotted FB.

Now this is a prototype, so it hasn't been completely tested or goof proofed.

Here are some pictures of it for further discussion.

Mark Bliss said:

If I am picturing what you describe acurately, I think it would work fine.


Using a square as a guide as shown in the back porch mojo video and seen elsewhere is a functional solution for the occasional or one off fret sawing operation, with care and a good eye you can get fine results that way. but if you do it more often, and want to do it with more speed and consistency, a miter box arrangement is a good step up.

There are several possible variations, although if one was contemplating doing this regularly, the Stew-mac box and indexing rig as presented in their how-to videos is probably a good way to go. I think they have, or Luthiers mercantile has a less elaborate miter box set-up that at a bit more reasonable cost for the occasional user. Building your own jig is a reasonable option as well, if well thought out it could be a rival to any of the above options.

Heres one possible variation for DIY'rs. How about a basic home made or basic miter box as you describe, and use the pre-sawn fingerboard as a guide similar to your description, but instead two-face tape it to the bottom of the fingerboard you want to saw and rig your miter box with a small steel pin in its base that is .023" in diam. where it protrudes and engages and indexes the slots of the pre-sawn fingerboard, which is face down in the miter?

Is my description making sense? (Wish I had a picture handy.)

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on December 2, 2010 at 1:05am

Thats an interesting jig you have built. I assume by your description the fingerboards are attatched together by the aluminum bracket and can slide together?

It also appears that you have the miter slot wide enough to allow the depth guide to still be used.

Heres some thoughts on possible design improvements (constructive critisism, and not to imply what you have made wont work fine.) First, you might consider not using the depth guage that attaches to the saw and instead keep the miter slot narrow (kerf width) for better control, and instead build the depth control into the miter box. Study this miter box for ideas.

Another possible improvement would be to add a cam clamp so you could move the finger board ahead to the next slot and secure it with one hand with the flip of a lever. Here is some clamp examples, but there are many simple and inexpensive ways you could do this.

Permalink Reply by carverman on December 2, 2010 at 2:02am

Mark Bliss said:

Thats an interesting jig you have built. I assume by your description the fingerboards are attatched together by the aluminum bracket and can slide together?
It also appears that you have the miter slot wide enough to allow the depth guide to still be used.
Well it was just an idea off the top of my head. I don't want to continue buying preslotted FB
from S-M as the shipping and customs clearance costs for a single FB gets pretty expensive.
So I thought. since I'm going to build at least 2 of these 6 string CBGs, I might as well build an
cheap (zero dollars) mitre box. I have to use a machinest square to ensure that both FB are
at the correct location when the fret saw is actually sitting inside the preslotted fret.
Of course, I have to expand the box to 26 inches in length to accomodate cutting the 20th
fret with this "jury rig" setup.

Heres some thoughts on possible design improvements (constructive critisism, and not to imply what you have made wont work fine.)

Constructive critism improves designs, so go right ahead. As I mentioned, Mark,
this mitre box cost me nothing to make ,so I can scrap it and go onto something else.
It's an interesting woodwork project,that came off the top of my head,
while I was brainstorming my old brain for a cost effective solution.

First, you might consider not using the depth guage that attaches to the saw and instead keep the miter slot narrow (kerf width) for better control, and instead build the depth control into the miter box. Study this miter box for ideas.

Well, I kinda like the idea of having the depth guage attached, so that the fret slot depth
is preset automatically...but if you think it's something that should be used at the very last
part of the slot cutting operation to set the actual depth on a precut NEW FB slot,
I can take it off and go with metal (aluminum) guides that will make it fairly tight
against the blade.

Another possible improvement would be to add a cam clamp so you could move the finger board ahead to the next slot and secure it with one hand with the flip of a lever. Here is some clamp examples, but there are many simple and inexpensive ways you could do this.

Yes, I have a woodwork supply close to me that sells alls sorts of specialty clamps and
have these (DestatCo toggle clamps), but they range in price from $13.50 to $29.00 ,
so if I need two of these,I'm back to spending as much for clamps as I would spend on two preslotted rosewood FB ...plus shipping from S-M.
One advantage of having my own fret slot mitre box is that I can cut odd scales
like they use on ukeles or mandolins. I do have one wooden cam clamp though and
a couple of these specialty "shark clamps" ,that I may be able to adapt to this project.

Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on December 5, 2010 at 4:52am

Carverman,
I am not disagreeing with you whatsoever in my additional comments. Cheap, or free is great, and desired if you are going to build just one, or a few pieces. I added my ideas with the thought that others might read this and combine ideas for their own needs.
I also have to confess to being a tool junkie. And that I often get as much or more satisfaction out of a well designed and built jig or fixture than the job it is built for. Having them hanging there brings satisfation to me, even if I rarely use them. Guilty as charged!
That said, I have been thinking a lot about your approuch on the fingerboards. I have to say I never really considered using a pre-sawn piece as a template and reproducing it. I have 25.4" acoustics, 25.5" solid body electrics, short stuff, chromatic stuff, diatonic stuff, etc etc so each one has kind of been aproached as an individual project. Which is odd because I generally like to build several identical pieces at a time on other projects to make best use of my time and set-up.
Anyway, Carverman got me thinking of a simple duplication procedure using a pre-sawn fingerboard and I came up with this idea.

*Note that for best results and accuracy, I would first check that the fingerboard blank has a straight edge, either by running it through a planer set to lightly cut, or by running it across a long straight surface with sandpaper on it. At least check it with a decent straight edge.

1: clamp the fingerboard you wish to saw, and the pre-sawn board to a flat worksurface side by side along the front edge, with the board to be sawn in front and just proud of the edge of the work surface.
2: with a fret saw (with depth guide removed or retracted) and a framing square (like the one used in the Back Porch Mojo vid) use the pre-sawn board as a spacing guide, and the square to guide the saw, and just cut all the slots enough to mark them.
3: Remove the pre-sawn board, set the saw in a slot of the pre-sawn board and set the depth guage against the fingerboard and secure. Now go to the fingerboard you are sawing (still clamped or re-clamped to the work surface as before, but without the pre-sawn board) and finish cutting the slots, using the square again if needed to guide you.

There you have it! A copy of the pre-sawn board with no miterbox, no extra tools, no fuss! And reasonably quick too!
I like it!

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