Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on April 14, 2010 at 5:42am

Dave,

Done try to straighten it.... just cut the width of your fretboard, then hammer (use a wood block as a caul, it you strike it with the hammer directly you can "dimple' the wire and then you have a real mess.) or press it in.... assuming that your fretcuts aren't sloppy wide, the tinges will hold the wire flat.....

the best,

Wichita Sam

Permalink Reply by Dave Breault on April 14, 2010 at 5:46am

I tried that Sam, and my kerfs are just a bit too wide, to hold the shape, it's funny though, it worked on some but not all, I was thinking some one might have a cool press of some kind that would put just enough reverse curve in the wire that would eliminate the spring back effect.

Wichita Sam said:

Dave,

Done try to straighten it.... just cut the width of your fretboard, then hammer (use a wood block as a caul, it you strike it with the hammer directly you can "dimple' the wire and then you have a real mess.) or press it in.... assuming that your fretcuts aren't sloppy wide, the tinges will hold the wire flat.....

the best,

Wichita Sam

Permalink Reply by Alan Roberts on April 14, 2010 at 5:50am

Hmmm. I put a slight curve INTO my fretwire to make it easier to put into a flat fretboard. I could stick the tang into the slot on both ends before hammering at it.

Permalink Reply by Dave Breault on April 14, 2010 at 5:53am

I know, so it is my saw kerf that is at issue here, I think I'm looking at a shit load of fret dressing on this one, damn.

Alan Roberts said:

Hmmm. I put a slight curve INTO my fretwire to make it easier to put into a flat fretboard. I could stick the tang into the slot on both ends before hammering at it.

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on April 14, 2010 at 2:12pm

So get a better saw.... a "flush cut" saw from Harbor Frieght for less than $ 10 will or Big Daddy Mojo's hintr using a scroll saw makes great fret saw...


Dave Breault said:

I tried that Sam, and my kerfs are just a bit too wide, to hold the shape, it's funny though, it worked on some but not all, I was thinking some one might have a cool press of some kind that would put just enough reverse curve in the wire that would eliminate the spring back effect.

Wichita Sam said:

Dave,

Done try to straighten it.... just cut the width of your fretboard, then hammer (use a wood block as a caul, it you strike it with the hammer directly you can "dimple' the wire and then you have a real mess.) or press it in.... assuming that your fretcuts aren't sloppy wide, the tinges will hold the wire flat.....

the best,

Wichita Sam

Permalink Reply by Kevin Lawton on April 14, 2010 at 11:24pm

Yes, the width of the saw kerf is very important. If you look carefully at the tines of fretwire you'll see that it is basically flat with a whole load of little projections to grip and hold the fret in place. You need the slots you cut to be just the right size for the flat part so the little projections bite into the wood.
Given that building CBGs is all about re-cycling found stuff and working on a budget, I prefer something different to just buying an expensive pro luthiers tool: Find a small hand saw where the actual blade itself is no thicker than the tines of the fretwire but, of course, the 'set' on the saw teeth cut a wider kerf. A cheap 'dovetail saw' or 'gentleman's saw' will do fine for this. Now dress both sides of the saw teeth on a sharpening stone / oil stone gradually untill the saw will cut a kerf in a piece of scrap wood which is just the right size that you want. It might take you perhaps five to ten minutes to 'adjust' a cheap saw like this - and you'll have a tool that you know will do the job.
Word of advice if I may: Always, but always, try everything new on pieces of scrap first before risking an instrument you are working on. Practising on scrap first can actually save time and frustration in the long run.
Finally (at last !) if you have accidentally cut the slots in a fret board too wide then simply glue the frets in place with epoxy. Straighten them first and just do one at a time as epoxy sets quite fast.

Permalink Reply by Dave Breault on April 15, 2010 at 3:01am

I have 3 different types of saw to use, 2 of which are too expensive to remove the set from the teeth, the one that I would consider is such a piece of crap that I don't want to go near a finished fret board with it. I did do test cuts first and my dove tail saw seemed to work fine, but for some reason not all the kerfs came out consistant,(read user error here). I spent some time last night dressing the frets, hammering some flatter and re adjusting the bridge and nut heights. I have eliminated all the fret buzzing but I'm not happy with the height of the action. I think I still need a good method of straightening out the fret wire before instalation or start doing arched fret boards.

I also glue all my fret wire down regardless of fit, just to be on the safe side.

Kevin Lawton said:

Yes, the width of the saw kerf is very important. If you look carefully at the tines of fretwire you'll see that it is basically flat with a whole load of little projections to grip and hold the fret in place. You need the slots you cut to be just the right size for the flat part so the little projections bite into the wood.
Given that building CBGs is all about re-cycling found stuff and working on a budget, I prefer something different to just buying an expensive pro luthiers tool: Find a small hand saw where the actual blade itself is no thicker than the tines of the fretwire but, of course, the 'set' on the saw teeth cut a wider kerf. A cheap 'dovetail saw' or 'gentleman's saw' will do fine for this. Now dress both sides of the saw teeth on a sharpening stone / oil stone gradually untill the saw will cut a kerf in a piece of scrap wood which is just the right size that you want. It might take you perhaps five to ten minutes to 'adjust' a cheap saw like this - and you'll have a tool that you know will do the job.
Word of advice if I may: Always, but always, try everything new on pieces of scrap first before risking an instrument you are working on. Practising on scrap first can actually save time and frustration in the long run.
Finally (at last !) if you have accidentally cut the slots in a fret board too wide then simply glue the frets in place with epoxy. Straighten them first and just do one at a time as epoxy sets quite fast.

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on April 15, 2010 at 3:09am

Dave,

Please rethink "always gluing" your frets down "regardless of fit"..... if... you have a nice tight fit, the frets aren't going anywhere..... and, if you mess something up, or in the future someone wants to refret, pulling frets that have been glued down can tear up the fretboard....

just a thought,
the best,

Sam

Dave Breault said:

I have 3 different types of saw to use, 2 of which are too expensive to remove the set from the teeth, the one that I would consider is such a piece of crap that I don't want to go near a finished fret board with it. I did do test cuts first and my dove tail saw seemed to work fine, but for some reason not all the kerfs came out consistant,(read user error here). I spent some time last night dressing the frets, hammering some flatter and re adjusting the bridge and nut heights. I have eliminated all the fret buzzing but I'm not happy with the height of the action. I think I still need a good method of straightening out the fret wire before instalation or start doing arched fret boards.

I also glue all my fret wire down regardless of fit, just to be on the safe side.

Kevin Lawton said:

Yes, the width of the saw kerf is very important. If you look carefully at the tines of fretwire you'll see that it is basically flat with a whole load of little projections to grip and hold the fret in place. You need the slots you cut to be just the right size for the flat part so the little projections bite into the wood.
Given that building CBGs is all about re-cycling found stuff and working on a budget, I prefer something different to just buying an expensive pro luthiers tool: Find a small hand saw where the actual blade itself is no thicker than the tines of the fretwire but, of course, the 'set' on the saw teeth cut a wider kerf. A cheap 'dovetail saw' or 'gentleman's saw' will do fine for this. Now dress both sides of the saw teeth on a sharpening stone / oil stone gradually untill the saw will cut a kerf in a piece of scrap wood which is just the right size that you want. It might take you perhaps five to ten minutes to 'adjust' a cheap saw like this - and you'll have a tool that you know will do the job.
Word of advice if I may: Always, but always, try everything new on pieces of scrap first before risking an instrument you are working on. Practising on scrap first can actually save time and frustration in the long run.
Finally (at last !) if you have accidentally cut the slots in a fret board too wide then simply glue the frets in place with epoxy. Straighten them first and just do one at a time as epoxy sets quite fast.

Permalink Reply by Dave Breault on April 15, 2010 at 3:23am

actually Sam, I have a cool little shield I can place over the fret, and using a hacked pair of end cutters I have pulled glued down fret wire with no issues what so ever, that said, it does take a little more care and effort to avoid just the type of damage you are reffering to. I find the first thing I need to do is score the underside of the fret with a scalpel to break any glue bonds there, then its just a matter of gently gripping the wire (starting from the ends) and prizing it out, I have even been able to reuse the pulled fret. I have many years of experience working on fine detailed repairs of this nature and I am very aware of how terribly wrong things can go, thats why I stress the part about going slowly and carefully.

Wichita Sam said:

Dave,

Please rethink "always gluing" your frets down "regardless of fit"..... if... you have a nice tight fit, the frets aren't going anywhere..... and, if you mess something up, or in the future someone wants to refret, pulling frets that have been glued down can tear up the fretboard....

just a thought,
the best,

Sam

Dave Breault said:

I have 3 different types of saw to use, 2 of which are too expensive to remove the set from the teeth, the one that I would consider is such a piece of crap that I don't want to go near a finished fret board with it. I did do test cuts first and my dove tail saw seemed to work fine, but for some reason not all the kerfs came out consistant,(read user error here). I spent some time last night dressing the frets, hammering some flatter and re adjusting the bridge and nut heights. I have eliminated all the fret buzzing but I'm not happy with the height of the action. I think I still need a good method of straightening out the fret wire before instalation or start doing arched fret boards.

I also glue all my fret wire down regardless of fit, just to be on the safe side.

Kevin Lawton said:

Yes, the width of the saw kerf is very important. If you look carefully at the tines of fretwire you'll see that it is basically flat with a whole load of little projections to grip and hold the fret in place. You need the slots you cut to be just the right size for the flat part so the little projections bite into the wood.
Given that building CBGs is all about re-cycling found stuff and working on a budget, I prefer something different to just buying an expensive pro luthiers tool: Find a small hand saw where the actual blade itself is no thicker than the tines of the fretwire but, of course, the 'set' on the saw teeth cut a wider kerf. A cheap 'dovetail saw' or 'gentleman's saw' will do fine for this. Now dress both sides of the saw teeth on a sharpening stone / oil stone gradually untill the saw will cut a kerf in a piece of scrap wood which is just the right size that you want. It might take you perhaps five to ten minutes to 'adjust' a cheap saw like this - and you'll have a tool that you know will do the job.
Word of advice if I may: Always, but always, try everything new on pieces of scrap first before risking an instrument you are working on. Practising on scrap first can actually save time and frustration in the long run.
Finally (at last !) if you have accidentally cut the slots in a fret board too wide then simply glue the frets in place with epoxy. Straighten them first and just do one at a time as epoxy sets quite fast.

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on April 15, 2010 at 3:56am

ok

Dave Breault said:

actually Sam, I have a cool little shield I can place over the fret, and using a hacked pair of end cutters I have pulled glued down fret wire with no issues what so ever, that said, it does take a little more care and effort to avoid just the type of damage you are reffering to. I find the first thing I need to do is score the underside of the fret with a scalpel to break any glue bonds there, then its just a matter of gently gripping the wire (starting from the ends) and prizing it out, I have even been able to reuse the pulled fret. I have many years of experience working on fine detailed repairs of this nature and I am very aware of how terribly wrong things can go, thats why I stress the part about going slowly and carefully.

Wichita Sam said:

Dave,

Please rethink "always gluing" your frets down "regardless of fit"..... if... you have a nice tight fit, the frets aren't going anywhere..... and, if you mess something up, or in the future someone wants to refret, pulling frets that have been glued down can tear up the fretboard....

just a thought,
the best,

Sam

Dave Breault said:

I have 3 different types of saw to use, 2 of which are too expensive to remove the set from the teeth, the one that I would consider is such a piece of crap that I don't want to go near a finished fret board with it. I did do test cuts first and my dove tail saw seemed to work fine, but for some reason not all the kerfs came out consistant,(read user error here). I spent some time last night dressing the frets, hammering some flatter and re adjusting the bridge and nut heights. I have eliminated all the fret buzzing but I'm not happy with the height of the action. I think I still need a good method of straightening out the fret wire before instalation or start doing arched fret boards.

I also glue all my fret wire down regardless of fit, just to be on the safe side.

Kevin Lawton said:

Yes, the width of the saw kerf is very important. If you look carefully at the tines of fretwire you'll see that it is basically flat with a whole load of little projections to grip and hold the fret in place. You need the slots you cut to be just the right size for the flat part so the little projections bite into the wood.
Given that building CBGs is all about re-cycling found stuff and working on a budget, I prefer something different to just buying an expensive pro luthiers tool: Find a small hand saw where the actual blade itself is no thicker than the tines of the fretwire but, of course, the 'set' on the saw teeth cut a wider kerf. A cheap 'dovetail saw' or 'gentleman's saw' will do fine for this. Now dress both sides of the saw teeth on a sharpening stone / oil stone gradually untill the saw will cut a kerf in a piece of scrap wood which is just the right size that you want. It might take you perhaps five to ten minutes to 'adjust' a cheap saw like this - and you'll have a tool that you know will do the job.
Word of advice if I may: Always, but always, try everything new on pieces of scrap first before risking an instrument you are working on. Practising on scrap first can actually save time and frustration in the long run.
Finally (at last !) if you have accidentally cut the slots in a fret board too wide then simply glue the frets in place with epoxy. Straighten them first and just do one at a time as epoxy sets quite fast.

Permalink Reply by Alan Roberts on April 15, 2010 at 7:30am

Stew-Mac has a doohickus that bends STRAIGHT wire into a BENT shape: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Pullers,_nippers,_siz...

NOT AT ALL what you want, I know. But take a good look at it and ask yourself what the OPPOSITE would look like... you have a pair of small wheels with a groove the size of a fret crown, and a big wheel with a slot a bit larger than a fret tang. With me?
Now what if you had a FLAT hard surface (I think a hardwood or corrian would work) with the thin slot cut down its length. As you press the wire's tang into this with one hand, the other hand slides a second, grooved, hard surface over the top pressing down the crown. Would that work?

Permalink Reply by Dave Breault on April 15, 2010 at 8:25am

I'm liking your thought process, I might even have something ready made for this, a small guage copper tube bender, a little hacking and I might be there. This looks like a job for BEER, only because no power tools will be used in the process, and there fore they won't get injured.

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