Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Diane in Chicago on August 26, 2011 at 3:51am

Love them Chateau boxes!  I have two in my stash, I might do them up with some gold fretwire I've been hoarding.

Permalink Reply by Habanera Hal on August 26, 2011 at 8:50am

Like the way you staggered the tuner holes!

Permalink Reply by George Durbin on August 26, 2011 at 10:10am

Thanx.  Thought I'd try something just a little different and it turned out pretty close to what I had in mind.   Like "they" all say, this is a learning experience (:>

Hal "PairsNPaint" Spalter said:

Like the way you staggered the tuner holes!

Permalink Reply by George Durbin on August 27, 2011 at 9:15am

Uh Oh!!! 

Maybe I jumped the gun a little in stating this thing sounds great.  Spent some time actually playing it (instead of playing with it!) and the second fret sound really, really tinny and across all four strings.  The first, third and all the other frets play as they should.

My first thought is that the slot for the fret wire is too big and the fret is sloppy, but there is no wiggle in it. Will remove the fret, tighten up the slot and try it again.

Before I do that though, is there something else I should be looking at to cause just that one spot to sound bad?

 

Permalink Reply by Diane in Chicago on August 27, 2011 at 12:40pm

Well, it might be a skootch too low, and the strings are just touching the next fret.  If you have a short piece of perfectly flat metal or plastic, you can place it over just three frets at a time.  If it rocks at all, the middle one is high.  If you can see daylight on the middle fret of the three, he's the problem, and the others might need to be lowered a bit to accommodate him. But I bet a bit of leveling will do the trick.

Permalink Reply by George Durbin on August 27, 2011 at 2:51pm

I checked that first thing - wasn't the problem - was flat/level back to the 4th fret. Changed the rascally fret anyway but that didn't help either.

However by raising the bridge (1mm) the problem was resolved. So that fret was too low even tho it was inline with its neighbors.

Now to my befuddled feeble mind, why would the bridge mess up the #2 fret and not the 1st & 3rd..??..??

Anyway - Thanks for the input (:>

 

Diane in Chicago said:

Well, it might be a skootch too low, and the strings are just touching the next fret.  If you have a short piece of perfectly flat metal or plastic, you can place it over just three frets at a time.  If it rocks at all, the middle one is high.  If you can see daylight on the middle fret of the three, he's the problem, and the others might need to be lowered a bit to accommodate him. But I bet a bit of leveling will do the trick.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Lamer on October 4, 2011 at 4:27am

Love your design George, Just starting my first build shortly and your design is what I am trying to accomplish. I am trying to get my head around the length of Neck. I want the fret board to extend onto the box like yours. What scales length did you use? I get confused as to how the last fret ends up at the box exactly. I also see you used 14 frets so am I correct to assume the half notes....learning as I go..lol.

Thanks

Permalink Reply by George Durbin on October 4, 2011 at 1:50pm

Hey Jeff -

Can't remember what the scale is on this one (and I don't have it here now to check), but I believe it's 25.5". 

What I do when I layout my scale template is to have MANY more fret positions than I need and simply stop marking them when I get to the point on the fingerboard that I want.  For instance, when I run the fret calculation program, I will indicate 21 (or 25 or 27)  frets even if I know I won't use them.

So far, I have 2 completed dulcimers (need to get a pic of the 2nd and post it) and the other one has a 24" scale. I'm still a newbie at this craft, so I can only relate what has worked for me and there are scads of people hereabouts who are ready and able to help you get started right.

I am working on a 24" CB guitar right now and am building a CB amp to go with it. The guitar is harder for me since I don't know how to play it but hey! that's what it's all about.

One thing to remember when extending the fretboard over the sound box (like I did on this one) is keeping enough room between that last fret and the bridge so that you have space to strum.  I didn't have any problem with this one because the Chateau box is l-o-n-g but my other build wouldn't work out the same because the cigar box is shorter.

The BIG thing to remember about cigar box builds - is that there are virtually no rules (beyond scale parameters).  If you browse thru the pics & posts and look at what everybody is building, you'll notice that pretty much anything goes! If you want to do something or try for a special look, go for it.  Like "they" keep saying, there are no rules!

And that is what I love about doing this!

Good luck and start building 'em.

 

Jeff Lamer said:

Love your design George, Just starting my first build shortly and your design is what I am trying to accomplish. I am trying to get my head around the length of Neck. I want the fret board to extend onto the box like yours. What scales length did you use? I get confused as to how the last fret ends up at the box exactly. I also see you used 14 frets so am I correct to assume the half notes....learning as I go..lol.

Thanks

Permalink Reply by George Durbin on October 11, 2011 at 12:43am

Correction - Clarification!!!! 

As a newbie builder, I presented a "tip" for laying out fret placement which can mess up your build.

I said that when I do my fret layout, I have the fret program add "extra" frets even if I know I won't be using them.  Just discovered that this strategy can have some really undesirable consequences.  By adding the extra frets to the template, it decreases the fret spacing and if you just quit marking that placement, the whole scale will be off.  So the correct way to do the layout is figure out how many frets you want/need and THEN do the layout template (if you use a template as I do).

So to Jeff (and anybody else who might have tried this), I apologize for the misleading info.  I discovered this error on the guitar I'm building when I checked the 12th fret spacing and it was off 1/2 inch!!  No wonder it sounded strange!  Now I have to completely re-do the neck.

George Durbin said:

Hey Jeff -

Can't remember what the scale is on this one (and I don't have it here now to check), but I believe it's 25.5". 

What I do when I layout my scale template is to have MANY more fret positions than I need and simply stop marking them when I get to the point on the fingerboard that I want.  For instance, when I run the fret calculation program, I will indicate 21 (or 25 or 27)  frets even if I know I won't use them.

So far, I have 2 completed dulcimers (need to get a pic of the 2nd and post it) and the other one has a 24" scale. I'm still a newbie at this craft, so I can only relate what has worked for me and there are scads of people hereabouts who are ready and able to help you get started right.

I am working on a 24" CB guitar right now and am building a CB amp to go with it. The guitar is harder for me since I don't know how to play it but hey! that's what it's all about.

One thing to remember when extending the fretboard over the sound box (like I did on this one) is keeping enough room between that last fret and the bridge so that you have space to strum.  I didn't have any problem with this one because the Chateau box is l-o-n-g but my other build wouldn't work out the same because the cigar box is shorter.

The BIG thing to remember about cigar box builds - is that there are virtually no rules (beyond scale parameters).  If you browse thru the pics & posts and look at what everybody is building, you'll notice that pretty much anything goes! If you want to do something or try for a special look, go for it.  Like "they" keep saying, there are no rules!

And that is what I love about doing this!

Good luck and start building 'em.

 

Jeff Lamer said:

Love your design George, Just starting my first build shortly and your design is what I am trying to accomplish. I am trying to get my head around the length of Neck. I want the fret board to extend onto the box like yours. What scales length did you use? I get confused as to how the last fret ends up at the box exactly. I also see you used 14 frets so am I correct to assume the half notes....learning as I go..lol.

Thanks

Permalink Reply by Diane in Chicago on October 11, 2011 at 1:29am

Wait!  If including a larger number of frets in your fret calculator (while leaving the scale constant) changes the position of your 12th fret, there is something wrong with your fret calculator.  It does not matter how many frets you include, the only thing that matters is the placement of however many you choose to utilize.  The 12th, the 24th and even the 36th are where they are, no matter if you include them or not.  For example a scale of 24", the 12 is at 12" and the 24th is at 18" and the 36th is at 21", even if they are only in your imagination.

 

I use this fret calculator that prints a template.  I find it easier to get an accurate marking that way. 

http://cigarboxguitars.com/fretfind/standard.php

 

 

 

George Durbin said:

Correction - Clarification!!!! 

As a newbie builder, I presented a "tip" for laying out fret placement which can mess up your build.

I said that when I do my fret layout, I have the fret program add "extra" frets even if I know I won't be using them.  Just discovered that this strategy can have some really undesirable consequences.  By adding the extra frets to the template, it decreases the fret spacing and if you just quit marking that placement, the whole scale will be off.  So the correct way to do the layout is figure out how many frets you want/need and THEN do the layout template (if you use a template as I do).

So to Jeff (and anybody else who might have tried this), I apologize for the misleading info.  I discovered this error on the guitar I'm building when I checked the 12th fret spacing and it was off 1/2 inch!!  No wonder it sounded strange!  Now I have to completely re-do the neck.

Permalink Reply by George Durbin on October 11, 2011 at 2:50am

Hi Diane,

That's what I thought, which is why I made that comment/suggestion and I use that same fret calculator (FretFind2D) that you posted the link to.

However, just yesterday I discovered that the guitar I'm working on sounded "off", so I checked the 12th fret from nut and bridge and it's off 1/2 inch.  I used my template (26.5") with the extra frets worked in and since it was off, I figured that those extra frets messed up the spacing.

I'm going to experiment with that program to see what's up.  I've made a dozen different templates to have on hand in the shop and now I'll have to double check each one,

I'm glad I'm not using exotic (expensive) wood for these builds (:>

 

 

Diane in Chicago said:

Wait!  If including a larger number of frets in your fret calculator (while leaving the scale constant) changes the position of your 12th fret, there is something wrong with your fret calculator.  It does not matter how many frets you include, the only thing that matters is the placement of however many you choose to utilize.  The 12th, the 24th and even the 36th are where they are, no matter if you include them or not.  For example a scale of 24", the 12 is at 12" and the 24th is at 18" and the 36th is at 21", even if they are only in your imagination.

 

I use this fret calculator that prints a template.  I find it easier to get an accurate marking that way. 

http://cigarboxguitars.com/fretfind/standard.php

 

 

 

George Durbin said:

Correction - Clarification!!!! 

As a newbie builder, I presented a "tip" for laying out fret placement which can mess up your build.

I said that when I do my fret layout, I have the fret program add "extra" frets even if I know I won't be using them.  Just discovered that this strategy can have some really undesirable consequences.  By adding the extra frets to the template, it decreases the fret spacing and if you just quit marking that placement, the whole scale will be off.  So the correct way to do the layout is figure out how many frets you want/need and THEN do the layout template (if you use a template as I do).

So to Jeff (and anybody else who might have tried this), I apologize for the misleading info.  I discovered this error on the guitar I'm building when I checked the 12th fret spacing and it was off 1/2 inch!!  No wonder it sounded strange!  Now I have to completely re-do the neck.

Permalink Reply by George Durbin on October 11, 2011 at 10:23am

Okay, now I have a dilemma......

Due to questions about 12th fret spacing being off on my current build, I ran my fret calculators again.  The FretFind2D gave me the same template that I was using and checking that template revealed that the 12th fret is indeed not equidistant from nut and bridge.

Ran the same scale thru the WFret program and it printed out a template that is indeed 12th fret accurate. 

I realize that this is "cigar box" and that there are no rules - if it sounds good, then rock it! - but I would think that intonation should be a close to "standard" as possible.  Or am I over-thinking this?

Has anybody else run into this issue or have a problem with the FretFind calculator??

And, does anybody know who's site it is, so I can contact him/her/them with my dilemma..??

thanx,

George

 

George Durbin said:

Hi Diane,

That's what I thought, which is why I made that comment/suggestion and I use that same fret calculator (FretFind2D) that you posted the link to.

However, just yesterday I discovered that the guitar I'm working on sounded "off", so I checked the 12th fret from nut and bridge and it's off 1/2 inch.  I used my template (26.5") with the extra frets worked in and since it was off, I figured that those extra frets messed up the spacing.

I'm going to experiment with that program to see what's up.  I've made a dozen different templates to have on hand in the shop and now I'll have to double check each one,

I'm glad I'm not using exotic (expensive) wood for these builds (:>

 

 

Diane in Chicago said:

Wait!  If including a larger number of frets in your fret calculator (while leaving the scale constant) changes the position of your 12th fret, there is something wrong with your fret calculator.  It does not matter how many frets you include, the only thing that matters is the placement of however many you choose to utilize.  The 12th, the 24th and even the 36th are where they are, no matter if you include them or not.  For example a scale of 24", the 12 is at 12" and the 24th is at 18" and the 36th is at 21", even if they are only in your imagination.

 

I use this fret calculator that prints a template.  I find it easier to get an accurate marking that way. 

http://cigarboxguitars.com/fretfind/standard.php

 

 

 

George Durbin said:

Correction - Clarification!!!! 

As a newbie builder, I presented a "tip" for laying out fret placement which can mess up your build.

I said that when I do my fret layout, I have the fret program add "extra" frets even if I know I won't be using them.  Just discovered that this strategy can have some really undesirable consequences.  By adding the extra frets to the template, it decreases the fret spacing and if you just quit marking that placement, the whole scale will be off.  So the correct way to do the layout is figure out how many frets you want/need and THEN do the layout template (if you use a template as I do).

So to Jeff (and anybody else who might have tried this), I apologize for the misleading info.  I discovered this error on the guitar I'm building when I checked the 12th fret spacing and it was off 1/2 inch!!  No wonder it sounded strange!  Now I have to completely re-do the neck.

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