Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on May 28, 2009 at 3:21am

Fretless? I am prolly wrong, but I don't think it matters so long as you are getting good sound. Are you going to use a slide? If so, I would say higher than an acoustic would be the answer. My current CBG is fretless, a little high and I use a slide. Perfect for me. 9/16 is a little over 1/2". if you aren't going to use a slide and chord with fingers, that might be a little high. You're call. Ted's built more than me (for sure).

On an acoustic, I think the string height to fretboard at the highest fret should be in the range of 4/64" - 6/64" -- depending on your style and feel. If you make the bridge/nut too high, you are likely to have too much string stretch and the notes will be off when you press them -- I would say this is true enough for a fretless too.

I know that on my big 'lectric, I had an issue where one string at the nut was too high and every note from the 1st thru the 5th were sharp. Had to lower it BUT also had to mind the intonation and fret buzz.

I could be wrong tho....

-Wes

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on May 28, 2009 at 4:01am

Wes,

I have a different take on string height for fretless slide... and I know I'm in the minority, but....

I setup my fretless slide guitar string height really low... I often use a jumbo fret as the "zero fret"/nut. I use a slide, but I do some neck banging for a different effect... and I also finger behind the slide to get minor and major 7th chords... or if I'm tuned minor, I finger ahead of the slide to get a major chord. Do this would be impossible with the very high string height that many play at... even if you could depress the string all the way to the neck, it would be out of tune.

I think that the origin of high strings for slide guitar are the "nut extenders" often used on fretted guitars to get enough height to avoid string buzz on frets. That is an issue and understandable on fretted guitars, but is irrelavent on fretless guitars.

just a different perspective....

the best,

Wichita Sam

Wes Yates said:

Fretless? I am prolly wrong, but I don't think it matters so long as you are getting good sound. Are you going to use a slide? If so, I would say higher than an acoustic would be the answer. My current CBG is fretless, a little high and I use a slide. Perfect for me. 9/16 is a little over 1/2". if you aren't going to use a slide and chord with fingers, that might be a little high. You're call. Ted's built more than me (for sure).

On an acoustic, I think the string height to fretboard at the highest fret should be in the range of 4/64" - 6/64" -- depending on your style and feel. If you make the bridge/nut too high, you are likely to have too much string stretch and the notes will be off when you press them -- I would say this is true enough for a fretless too.

I know that on my big 'lectric, I had an issue where one string at the nut was too high and every note from the 1st thru the 5th were sharp. Had to lower it BUT also had to mind the intonation and fret buzz.

I could be wrong tho....

-Wes

Permalink Reply by gene on May 28, 2009 at 5:23am

i only built one CBG, but for what it's worth:
i measured the height of bridge and nut from my acoustic guitar and action turned out to be about a mile high LOL. because (i guess) the neck was flat and straight at 90 degrees to the body. while on a "real" guitar its at an angle. but then i just filed on my bridge till the slots were deep enough and intonation was getting better.

Permalink Reply by Wes "I'm Baaaaack" Yates on May 28, 2009 at 6:19am

Good info Sam! See, whatever works for ya, right.

So what's you tuning to get those chords?

-Wes

Wichita Sam said:

Wes,

I have a different take on string height for fretless slide... and I know I'm in the minority, but....

I setup my fretless slide guitar string height really low... I often use a jumbo fret as the "zero fret"/nut. I use a slide, but I do some neck banging for a different effect... and I also finger behind the slide to get minor and major 7th chords... or if I'm tuned minor, I finger ahead of the slide to get a major chord. Do this would be impossible with the very high string height that many play at... even if you could depress the string all the way to the neck, it would be out of tune.

I think that the origin of high strings for slide guitar are the "nut extenders" often used on fretted guitars to get enough height to avoid string buzz on frets. That is an issue and understandable on fretted guitars, but is irrelavent on fretless guitars.

just a different perspective....

the best,

Wichita Sam

Permalink Reply by Chris Deutsch on May 28, 2009 at 6:48am

Sam, Thanks Your insight is what I was looking for. I am going to try to keep the ratio the same as I am used to on other guitars. I do however want to know if you have songs out or anything on Youtube to see, your style of playing.
Wichita Sam said:

Wes,

I have a different take on string height for fretless slide... and I know I'm in the minority, but....

I setup my fretless slide guitar string height really low... I often use a jumbo fret as the "zero fret"/nut. I use a slide, but I do some neck banging for a different effect... and I also finger behind the slide to get minor and major 7th chords... or if I'm tuned minor, I finger ahead of the slide to get a major chord. Do this would be impossible with the very high string height that many play at... even if you could depress the string all the way to the neck, it would be out of tune.

I think that the origin of high strings for slide guitar are the "nut extenders" often used on fretted guitars to get enough height to avoid string buzz on frets. That is an issue and understandable on fretted guitars, but is irrelavent on fretless guitars.

just a different perspective....

the best,

Wichita Sam

Wes Yates said:

Fretless? I am prolly wrong, but I don't think it matters so long as you are getting good sound. Are you going to use a slide? If so, I would say higher than an acoustic would be the answer. My current CBG is fretless, a little high and I use a slide. Perfect for me. 9/16 is a little over 1/2". if you aren't going to use a slide and chord with fingers, that might be a little high. You're call. Ted's built more than me (for sure).

On an acoustic, I think the string height to fretboard at the highest fret should be in the range of 4/64" - 6/64" -- depending on your style and feel. If you make the bridge/nut too high, you are likely to have too much string stretch and the notes will be off when you press them -- I would say this is true enough for a fretless too.

I know that on my big 'lectric, I had an issue where one string at the nut was too high and every note from the 1st thru the 5th were sharp. Had to lower it BUT also had to mind the intonation and fret buzz.

I could be wrong tho....

-Wes

Permalink Reply by Chris Deutsch on May 28, 2009 at 6:54am

Gene ,
I will adjust accordingly.
If I may make a correction the neck is flat and straight to the body which makes it in a 180 degree alignment. 90 degrees is a right angle. But as you mentioned that is what made me ask the question that the neck and body are in a straight line and there is no angle to the neck to compensate for the string length and nut and bridge location.

gene said:

i only built one CBG, but for what it's worth:
i measured the height of bridge and nut from my acoustic guitar and action turned out to be about a mile high LOL. because (i guess) the neck was flat and straight at 90 degrees to the body. while on a "real" guitar its at an angle. but then i just filed on my bridge till the slots were deep enough and intonation was getting better.

Permalink Reply by Brian Lemin on May 31, 2009 at 7:55pm

I hate to be nontechnical as I love theory, but I would work on "suck it and see".

Set it up so that it "looks" right; play it and see if it sounds right. Adjust the height of the strings to suit you and the sound you want, then make the finished bridge/nut.

I like the idea of starting low and then moving up as adding shims is easier and less destructive than sanding away material.

Permalink Reply by Sven Pfitt on June 23, 2009 at 4:50pm

If you are doing fret-less it does not matter. The slide becomes the fret.

For frets, it is important that you maintain a 1 diameter spacing (wire diameter) above the fret to prevent buzzing and maintain control over the oscillating string ( wire, whatever). For fret-less operation the slide becomes the fret and needs to have the wires (strings) high enough to prevent dragging them over the fret(less)board.

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on June 24, 2009 at 2:34am

Sven,

Have you ever played a really low action fretless? Using a "zero fret" gets that 1 diameter spacing your asking for, but keeps the action low enough so that you can use a slide and finger notes. I'm not much of a skillful player, but this way I can play minors and sevenths behind the slide and still have the intonation right. The higher the action the poorer the intonation...

People like high actions because that's what they learn on and so they think it's the "right way". Try a low action. With a little practice you'll see the advantages...

the best,

Wichita Sam

Sven Pfitt said:

If you are doing fret-less it does not matter. The slide becomes the fret.

For frets, it is important that you maintain a 1 diameter spacing (wire diameter) above the fret to prevent buzzing and maintain control over the oscillating string ( wire, whatever). For fret-less operation the slide becomes the fret and needs to have the wires (strings) high enough to prevent dragging them over the fret(less)board.

Permalink Reply by Sven Pfitt on June 24, 2009 at 5:00pm

Thanks Sam.

I'm working on a two string slide tonight. I've got most of it finished, and just need to pick up some screws for the string tuners. It is a quick and dirty job but I want something to work with while I take my time on the 4 String.

I was thinking in terms of buzz from having the strings close to the fretboard. Might be off in rt field. I've got my string height set to 1/4" on this one. I can always modify it and lower the string height, but it is more difficult to raise it than it is to lower it.

I'll be putting a piezo in this Slide CBG to do some experimenting with. I think I may have figured out why some people have feedback problems, and how to overcome the harsh effects some people are reporting when driving the guitar hard.

I've got three different types of Piezo Transducers to work with. Two are three terminal and one is the RS 273-0073(A).

I've got to build a PA to finish testing, but I'm going to look at signal distortion with and oscilloscope to start off.

Sven

Wichita Sam said:

Sven,

Have you ever played a really low action fretless? Using a "zero fret" gets that 1 diameter spacing your asking for, but keeps the action low enough so that you can use a slide and finger notes. I'm not much of a skillful player, but this way I can play minors and sevenths behind the slide and still have the intonation right. The higher the action the poorer the intonation...

People like high actions because that's what they learn on and so they think it's the "right way". Try a low action. With a little practice you'll see the advantages...

the best,

Wichita Sam

Sven Pfitt said:

If you are doing fret-less it does not matter. The slide becomes the fret.

For frets, it is important that you maintain a 1 diameter spacing (wire diameter) above the fret to prevent buzzing and maintain control over the oscillating string ( wire, whatever). For fret-less operation the slide becomes the fret and needs to have the wires (strings) high enough to prevent dragging them over the fret(less)board.

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on June 24, 2009 at 11:03pm

Sven,

Part of my "commitment" to low action fretless is that I'm working on a playing style that mimics slide without actually using a slide. I'm using my index (pointer) finger as the "slide" and can then use other fingers for noting (sort of the reverse of wearing a pinkie slide). I can get a softer sound and do some "walking" notes mixed in with regular "slide" action. This would be impossible with a high action and the intonation would be all messed up...

just some thoughts,

Sam

Sven Pfitt said:

Thanks Sam.

I'm working on a two string slide tonight. I've got most of it finished, and just need to pick up some screws for the string tuners. It is a quick and dirty job but I want something to work with while I take my time on the 4 String.

I was thinking in terms of buzz from having the strings close to the fretboard. Might be off in rt field. I've got my string height set to 1/4" on this one. I can always modify it and lower the string height, but it is more difficult to raise it than it is to lower it.

I'll be putting a piezo in this Slide CBG to do some experimenting with. I think I may have figured out why some people have feedback problems, and how to overcome the harsh effects some people are reporting when driving the guitar hard.

I've got three different types of Piezo Transducers to work with. Two are three terminal and one is the RS 273-0073(A).

I've got to build a PA to finish testing, but I'm going to look at signal distortion with and oscilloscope to start off.

Sven

Wichita Sam said:

Sven,

Have you ever played a really low action fretless? Using a "zero fret" gets that 1 diameter spacing your asking for, but keeps the action low enough so that you can use a slide and finger notes. I'm not much of a skillful player, but this way I can play minors and sevenths behind the slide and still have the intonation right. The higher the action the poorer the intonation...

People like high actions because that's what they learn on and so they think it's the "right way". Try a low action. With a little practice you'll see the advantages...

the best,

Wichita Sam

Sven Pfitt said:

If you are doing fret-less it does not matter. The slide becomes the fret.

For frets, it is important that you maintain a 1 diameter spacing (wire diameter) above the fret to prevent buzzing and maintain control over the oscillating string ( wire, whatever). For fret-less operation the slide becomes the fret and needs to have the wires (strings) high enough to prevent dragging them over the fret(less)board.