Hi, just for the sake of making lighthearted conversation, I‘d like to share the following.


Rules. I was checking long-lost posts recently and came across comments, many by long-lost members, that bought up the word, or the issue of rules as related to instruments featured in this forum. So…..

It is often said on this forum that there are no rules when building a CBG. I would suggest that there are rules if that’s the word one chooses to use, and as in all areas of endeavor, not following the rules has consequences.
I do not intend to criticise those that choose to work outside those rules, as I would be criticizing myself. I would be the first to admit that I find it hard to stick to all the rules, all the time that are associated with musical instrument building.
There are however many rules in life that I do adhere to, but in the building of instruments, I’m the only one that faces any consequences of stepping outside the rule.


• What are rules? A set of guidelines or principles governing the procedure within a particular area of activity.
I like to use the word guidelines, sounds less intimidating than rules. But for the sake of this offering, I’ll use the word RULES.

Before I started building instruments seriously, I read and followed all the rules I could get my hands on. In those days the main source of info for me was from magazines. When I could afford books, I learned the rules for building all popular stringed instruments. Why?......


Well, after spending lots of money on tonewood and storing it for use, and being in uncharted waters, I couldn’t afford to mess things up. It took a few years before I started to make my own rules.
Rules are not static they evolve.
• Rules are based on theories of what’s best based on info at the time.
• When understanding the reason for the rule we can see the consequences of deviating from it.


Rules that restrict more than they enable are often broken in my workshop, but I appreciate and understand the reason for that rule and set my own guidelines.
If everybody followed all the rules laid out by early instrument builders progress would be hampered with new designs, methods, and materials not evolving. I would say that some rules do apply to building “box” guitars as they do for other instruments, and not following those rules, or being selective is what makes Lutherie interesting for me.


Rules are instructions, a guide to do a task, but not the only way though.
So, when someone asks, “how do I…?” we often respond with a rule or should I say, respond with guidelines.
Footnote: After fifty years of repairing stringed Instruments, and I’ve seen inside all brands, I can confidently tell you we are not the only group not following the rules all the time. Haha.
Cheers Taff

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I've heard the mantra "There are no Rules!" many times is the CBG community.

I think a lot of new builders misinterpret this and end up disappointed and discouraged, but I believe that the original intent was probably more along the lines of "Adhere to or Buck Convention as you prefer". And with that I definitely agree.

A problem arises though when people try to ignore the Laws of Physics. They do that and end up with a wall-hanger instead of a musical instrument.

The best builders understand this, you among them Taff, and are able to balance aesthetics and functionality to create real art.

This is a great topic Taffy. Thanks for starting the conversation.

As Korrigan states, you occasionally see the builder who wants to space frets unconventionally, or slant the bridge (and not the frets) in an odd way, or some other unconventional thing and... well... the results are often disappointing (unless you're going for a microtonal instrument of course). So, a lot of aspects of 'traditional' luthiery still apply to CBGs.

That said, the defacto CBG is made from a bunch of objects that weren't necessarily designed to be used together. Cigar box bodies, plank neck, mismatched pots/jacks, recycled 6-string pickups (on 3-string instruments), found objects repurposed for bridges/tailpieces, etc... are what make CBGs so great in my eyes. Some of the most unlikely combinations sound amazing together and the CBG really embodies the 'shabby chic' vibe. To quote Shane Speal, "nobody builds their first CBG to play nice things."

At the opposite end of the spectrum, I've been to various cigar box guitar festivals and seen some CBGs that are completely handmade, elaborately designed, absolutely gorgeous, and commanding prices north of $700. Essentially, they're 'traditional' string instruments made in the spirit of CBGs. I can easily see the beauty in something like that, but it's just less of a CBG in my eyes.

Granted there's a ton of grey area between those two extremes and I suppose that's where most builds lie. I think the hobby ultimately gives the builder a creative outlet (no matter how simple or complex) and that's the most important thing. It is a thought provoking topic though. It's almost like saying... can a CBG be too nice?

Hi, thanks for contributing to the conversation Korrigan and Poorness, all comments are valid and hopefully constructive in helping newcomers to be successful.

That's very true about creating a wall hanger Korrigan. I remember the first instrument that I built was a mandolin, or so I thought. The only guidelines I had to work with was a photo of a guy holding a mandolin, no instructions no rules. I worked out the sizes I remember, by saying if a man's hand covers a third of the instrument, then a mandolin must be three hands long, and son. I have photos of it, but it didn't even make it to the wall. Haha. I was shocked when I eventually saw a real mandolin.

Poorness, I see a new post there... can a cbg be too nice. Haha.
Taff

Very true Taffy. That could be it's own topic... or even what makes a CBG a CBG? I mean... so many builds (including several of my own) don't even use cigar boxes, LOL. Is that even the right name for this hobby?

I think Korrigan nailed it. You can choose to comply to popular conventions or go for broke... it's up to you and that's what draws builders to the hobby. Of course, that inevitably opens a new rabbit hole. What exactly is a 'popular convention'? I mean there's nothing inherently 'correct' about A=440 Hz. It's common, but that doesn't make it correct. Oh jeez... now I did it. LOL.

Okay, okay... back on topic... I think one of the unique things about CBGs is there's no defined parameter for the sound of one. If you talk about "the Fender Tele sound"... people know what that is. Or "the Gibson Les Paul sound"... that's defined by various recordings of the 50's and 60's. So what exactly is "the CBG sound"? Nobody knows. It's completely interpretive. Therefore, it's hard to create rules when you don't have a benchmark.

nice can of worms you opened Taff. 

My humble opinion is that the "no rules" is about what you build with , the materials you choose to use. choice of pickup or no pickup. To Fret or Not to Fret that is the question... ( sorry Shakespeare ) .

Korrigan mentioned Physics. I think the only Physics that is fundamental is when you are using frets. If you want to use the western 12 semitone even weighted scale then there is only one rule that cant be ignored and that is scale length and consequently fret placement . Yes you can strategically skip frets to make diatonic scales etc. But fret placement isnt a guideline. I am aware that the western 12 semitone system we use is actually a compromise and not mathematically correct . 

Other things like Bridge placement on the soundboard ,as long as scale length is maintained , is up to the builder.  The ideal spot according to box dimensions might give the loudest notes but not always the best tone. 

You are right about frets, but the laws of physics apply to many more areas of CBG building. Think about things like materials, construction methods, tensions, stresses, forces.

Imagine building a fretless diddley bow out of a 8x10 cigar box with no internal bracing, using a 3/4 inch square balsa wood dowel using a bolt on design (not neck through), 6" soundhole, bridge 2" tall and mounted right at the edge of the soundhole, sting anchored to the box 1" from the bridge, using a .010 string tuned to G4.

How's it going to sound? Will you even be able to play it? Will the string or the neck break first? Or is the whole thing going to fold in half before you get it up to pitch?

Of course you would never build something like this because you have common sense... which is basically your brain subconsciously following the laws of physics.  ;-)

Thanks for the input Tim.

You could be right about the worms, I think they are getting tangled up tighter. I have, thanks to the replies so far, thought of a way to address/describe this issue of rules. It's based on a Hierarchy of Neads. I'm sure someone can offer something quicker than me, but I'm working on it.
Ideas came from the comments above. If I play with a slide and no fret positions, I will not need a rule, all I need is to play. If I add frets, to play in tune a rule has to be applied. And so on, as the builder's needs grow so might the rules or guidelines.

I'll be back, Taff

We're arguing semantics now but I contend that adding frets doesn't mean that a rule MUST be applied.

I believe "rules", used in our context, deal with various conventions for solving problems. Rules can be bent, broken or ignored while still achieving a desired outcome. So for example, with frets, the rule might be to use premade metal fretwire. But one could also use nails or toothpicks. To my mind, rules are simply "best practice procedures".

Adding frets does mean, however, that "laws" MUST be followed. Frets must be spaced correctly, there is no way around it. The laws of physics can not be bent, broken or ignored because the desired outcome will not be achieved. 

Sorry for being pedantic...  I can't help it. lol

This is so great. I love this kind of though-provoking conversation. I feel like this experience would be so much better over beers rather than on an Internet forum. LOL.

As long as we're talking rules... I remember seeing a video a several years ago about a builder who created a 15-toned scale (it was my first exposure to microtonal music). I can't seem to find the video now or I'd include a link. Anyway, in the space where we would conventionally use 12 frets... he used 15. When he would play chromatically up the scale, it sounded really weird. You ear knew that instrument was breaking 'rules'.

However, he composed pieces with this instrument and they sounded amazing in context. It was kinda mind blowing for me and - honestly - it changed how I thought about the physics of music. Something like that is truly thinking outside the box.

That said, I personally wouldn't want that instrument. It would be nearly impossible to cover a familiar tune on it and I just don't have that kinda vision... but I appreciate someone who does.

Hi, Great input from everybody. Before posting this thread I had it critiqued a few times, as I did not wish to upset others or create arguments, just lighthearted discussion. And to bring up points others may find they had not considered. I for one benefited by finding this Ebook The Lutherie Blog Book. I would recommend this, only $15.00, depending on which country you are in.

In case we get sidetracked...the main points again:

• What are rules? A set of guidelines or principles governing the procedure within a particular area of activity.

• Rules are not static they evolve.

• Rules are based on theories of what’s best based on info at the time.

• When understanding the reason for the rule we can see the consequences of deviating from it.

• Rules are instructions, a guide to do a task, but not the only way though.

Cheers Taff

You don't reference specific posts Taffy but I can definitely take the blame for getting us into the microtonal rabbit hole. I guess I interpreted this thread as a discussion amongst builders/composers and not a guide for beginners. Needless to say, the two will spur a very different set of outcomes.

The thing with written communication is there's no tone/inflection and sometimes a particular comment strikes a nerve it wasn't intended to. Then misunderstandings abound and that sort of thing wouldn't happen if we were sitting around a table. That said, I've re-read this thread top to bottom and I don't detect that. Although, to be fair, I have Aspergers.

I'm an engineer by profession so I really enjoy these "rules vs popular conventions" discussions. I think they're fascinating. Again, you don't specify which posts but if I offended anyone, I apologize for that. I'll move on to a different thread cuz it seems I'm not contributing to the original intent.

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