Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Taffy Evans on August 4, 2018 at 4:46pm

Thanks Cause,

The thing I don't like about paint on a guitar is it hides the grain, and I love the look of timber.

I had a long discussion with a customer who wanted the guitar I was building for him painted black, I did not like the idea, so in the end we came up with a compromise. I was allowed to show some wood grain on the back. He wanted me to use timber from his deceased dads workshop, and then suggested I cover it up. Other than that my guitars are always finished in clear. I posted a pic here.

Taff

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Permalink Reply by Paul Craig on August 5, 2018 at 6:52pm

Beautiful Taff.

I have some guitars that are painted, some stained and some natural. Haven't really noticed any negative effects on the tone. I've even seen guitars covered with material and vinyl wrap that still had good tone.

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Permalink Reply by Cause the Blue rat on August 5, 2018 at 9:50pm

It's been proven over and over and well over again that wood has little to no effect on the tone of a guitar with modern potted pickups. That's why everyone preaching tonewood uses non potted microphonic pickups. And there are plenty of other dirty tricks. But this isn't the place for all of that. So vinyl, fake fur. leather, lace or covering it with your favorite stickers wont effect the tone. But the fake fur might deaden the strings  : ) 

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Permalink Reply by Paul Craig on August 8, 2018 at 7:06pm

Yes potting and sealing with wax/epoxy helps quiet the microphonics, but it only penetrates so far into the coil. Any pickup made with a coil of wire will continue to transmit body vibrations to signal. It's inherent to the design.

I like pickups that have some microphonics for that very reason. Some just have too much though and you have the squeal and feedback issues. It's a fine line. 

It's easy enough to find out by muting the strings, turning the guitar and amp volume to max and listen to how much handling noise comes through. Tapping on the body/neck or other parts. The more potting/sealing the pickups have, the less reaction you get, but you can fully stop it.

So yes that Tonewood matters less with potted/sealed pickups in solid body guitars. However you can usually determine a difference from one guitar to another even in blind tests. The difference can be slight to large and some of those differences can be attributed to variables in the wood itself. No 2 guitars will sound the exact same even if it's made of the same wood. Making the whole Tonewood debate rage on. If it had been proved either way, the debate wouldn't still be raging on.

The whole Tonewood deal is more of a guideline for people to try to achieve a guitar that will produce a certain target tone, but the results can vary. And yes the marketing people make a lot of claims because they want to sell guitars.

If it was just up to the pickup, then every guitar made with the same pickup, scale, string gauge and hardware would sound the same. But, they don't sound the same. Even 2 guitars made to the same specs with the same materials will have a difference in sound due to variables. So what ever all the parts are mounted to will contribute something to the tone regardless.

What is good about Plywood is the stability of it. There's a lot of different plywood available today compared to the 1960's thru the 1980's. To my ears, most of those guitars(cheap Asian or cheap American) produced a dark and somewhat dull tone compared to the solid Alder/Ash Strats made by Fender. Today's ply can be Birch, Luan, Spruce and others that have a noticeable tonal character when I do the knock test at the hardware store. Another possible factor of older ply may have had something to do with the glue used and filler material.

The coverings of the outer surface has been a topic of much debate mostly on Acoustic Guitar Forums. Anything that could dampen vibrations of thin wood of a top or bottom of a acoustic sound chamber is an issue. Solid guitar's vibrations are more subdued and travel through the inner area of the wood. So my thinking is that the coverings of paint, sealer, stain, poly, lacquer or fabric/leather on a solid body guitar would be of little to no negative effect on tone. IMO YMMV

Believe what you will, I KNOW THE TRUTH! Bwahahahaha

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Permalink Reply by Cause the Blue rat on August 4, 2018 at 8:02pm

Awesome build Taffy! I used to be really into wood grain. Now not so much. Was in walmarts craft section tonight. Needed paint for my clamps. Walked past the glitter and had to stop. My brain got hippie. Picked up this off blue color fine sparkle and started thinking..... mix one part of this with two parts acrylic clear coat Paint five coats over a matching blue. Then do a few coats of just clear..... ya...deep sparkly.... then hippie went away and I put the jar of off blue sparkle back on the shelf. : )

Just a bit more work and these clamps will be ready. A good coating of clear acrylic sealer and resanding the side that'll be touching the guitar. Want to get rid of all the color that ran on that side. Mixed water with some cheap craft paint so the wood would kinda show through. Because the rod was 72 inches I cut all the pieces eight inches long. This gives me up to four inches of clamping space. Got to head east tomorrow so I'll pick up a 3/8 x six foot threaded rod on the way back. 

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Permalink Reply by Taffy Evans on August 6, 2018 at 12:45pm

Hi, I think that it could be that the difference noticed in the performance of a pickup when mounted in different timbers, may not be the effect of the timber on the pickup itself but more on its effect on the strings vibration/energy.

A pickup will pass on to the amp what gets fed in. A good sustaining powerful string response due to solid mounting of bridge ,tailpiece and neck into a more solid stable body may account for this improved performance. just my thoughts on the subject.

Taff

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Permalink Reply by Paul Craig on August 9, 2018 at 2:27pm

www.stewmac.com/How-To/Trade_Secrets/How_to_fix_sticky_bass_tuners....

Another good DIY video.

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Permalink Reply by Cause the Blue rat on August 10, 2018 at 12:48am

More importantly, how do you get sticky bass tuners? Inquiring minds want to know. : )

My guitars are back on the workbench. After a 40+ mile round trip I at 4:00 in the morning I have ink for my printer. Talked to someone at that store. Said they lived in the same town I do. So I asked why she traveled east when our town has a walmarts. She said what I already new. Our walmart sucks to all hell. We're getting a new big grocery store. Really looking forward to having a selection of things to choose from. 

Everyone who preaches tone would screws microphones onto their guitars. Everyone who proves tone wood is dead uses Fender, Dimazio, Seymour Duncan or other pickups that people actually use when they play. 

If tone wood was real then how is this possible?

piezo rod bridge in a cement block

My Duncan Lil' 59's in plywood sound awesome! And by the way. There's hundreds of people who stick real potted electric pickups into cigar boxes. And guess what. They sound like real pickups in a real electric guitar. Not muddy or muffled or loss of highs. If they didn't sound good people would have stopped doing that a long time ago. I personally own a Swamp Witch guitar. It also has an electric guitar pickup. just like all the ones he sells. And it also sounds awesome and just like a real electric guitar. With no loss of anything. 

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Permalink Reply by Taffy Evans on August 10, 2018 at 10:21am

Sticky bass tuners? Dan explained why the tuners he worked on were sticking. I have found that older tuners wear over time and the gears and worm drive may not mesh together as well as they once did. With the slightly worn parts comes more friction, to ease the friction adding lubrication in the form of that grease. Smoother opporation.

Another cause could be dry hard old grease.

i use that same grease in nut grooves, pivot points on tremolo bridges and open back tuners, works well to ease friction and tuning issues. 

Taff

 

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Permalink Reply by Cause the Blue rat on August 10, 2018 at 9:32pm

I kinda had that one figured out. But the idea of having sticky fish tuners was to much to pass up. : )

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Permalink Reply by Paul Craig on August 11, 2018 at 6:33pm

Sticky tuners from a spilled beer probably.

Some people make the worst decisions on picking something for lubricating. Then there's those that don't lube at all. Cheap tuners will grind without lube faster than better quality tuners will, but a cheap tuner with the right lube will last a long time.

I learned from my brother that was a Bassist that Vaseline was the best product for tuners, tremolos and nut grooves. It works great til it starts to pick up dust and grim. Then comes the grinding and metal particles that will destroy the tuner. Solid lube will have dirt and grim accumulate and harm the tuner. This is why I get sealed tuners or tuners with a cap over the gears. I use a little drop of oil on the nut string grooves, bridge and tremolo and clean away whatever accumulates. 

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Permalink Reply by Paul Craig on August 11, 2018 at 6:17pm

Whatever material a body or neck is made of will vibrate in sympathy to the string vibration(For every action, there will be an equal or opposite reaction). The tonewood equation is easy to hear in a acoustic guitar. Pickups that are found in solid body electrics are thought to do all the work. 

Your example shows how a piezo can help amplify the vibrations through a cement block. However, it doesn't sound like wood. You can put piezo's in a solid body wood guitar and get sound that will sound like a wood guitar and depending on the quality of said guitar, materials, piezo and preamp, it can sound as good as a acoustic guitar.

Fender Custom Shop recently made an entire Strat out of cardboard with a loaded pickguard and played it. It did sound like a guitar. Did it sound like a Alder/Ash Strat? I don't think so, but some might think it sounds good enough. Just don't get it wet. Haha

Taylor Guitar Company makes the T5Z acoustic guitar. It has 3 pickups in it. It has one stacked humbucker near the bridge, a piezo system and a humbucker that is made into the neck pocket and is unseen. That neck humbucker senses the string vibrations (through the wood) disrupting the magnetic field, but it also senses the vibrations of the wood. A lot of people love the tone from that guitar. Most of the complaints I've heard from former owners were that they couldn't get used to the guitar because it sounded and played more like a electric guitar. I think it just messed with their heads too bad and they couldn't bond with it. The price is way too high as well.

You like the tone you get with your plywood made guitars. There's nothing wrong with that my friend.

Back in the 80's, I had 2 Les Paul guitars. One was a Gibson Studio and one was a Lotus. Both guitars sounded great through the amp and pedals I had back then and in a stage venue it most likely won't matter. If your playing clean in a small quiet room or clean on a quiet stage, you won't believe all the influence on the tone that you can hear. Which is why classical guitarist and Jazz guitarist will pay the big dollars for big name brand gear made from tonewoods. In that situation, it will always sound the best. Add some gain, distortion, fuzz, wah or other and play dirty Rock, Punk or Blues and it really won't matter much.

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