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Using piezos AND magnetic pickups - the facts!

I hope this is right following such a bold title! If not, at least I / we might learn something else! lol

I guess a lot of us have toyed with using both piezos and magnetic pups in a build, to give a wider choice of tones.

When I was researching this set up for my reso conversion, for the most part the concensus was that it wouldnt work, due to the impedence difference between the two. Now I have little understanding of such things, so in my typically blind optomistic way, went ahead and did it anyway - and it seemed to work (believe me when I say I was elated)!

The tone was definately different between just the magnetic pup, just the piezos, and both together. The is a slight volume difference, but not a huge degree.

So whats the story?

Well, since its way beyond my understandin, I asked an electronics genius / lecturer friend - he suggests that it is NOT working.... at least, not in the way I thought it was.

With both piezo and magnetic switched on, the sound is not a combination of the two. One is shorting out on the other. Im sorry to say I didnt pay attention as to which is which, but lets say for argument its the piezo shorting out on the magnetic - flicking the switch doesnt kick in the pup, but rather opens a short, in essence altering the impedance of the piezo = new tone, without the magnetic being used. Magic!

I still see it as an overall sucess - the aim was to get a variation in tones, which has been achieved, albeit, accidentally :o)

Apologies if you guys already knew this, but it was big news to me (hell, I even have a little understanding now!!) - assuming its correct?

Any thoughts?

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Permalink Reply by StarGeezers on September 5, 2009 at 6:57am

Gentlemen , on "regular guitars" , we run the piezo and the mag pup to a stereo jack , and use a Y cord to run the mags to a guitar amp and the piezo to a PA system ... Works great !!! for many years now ... the piezo just sounds more "acoustic" with the PA amp than a guitar amp , and the higher Z doesn't seem to affect it as much ...

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Permalink Reply by David L. on September 5, 2009 at 7:30am

Hi,
I have just come across this website
http://www.ratcliffe.co.za/articles/piezo.shtml
he goes into some depth regarding mixing of magnetic and piezo pups and states
"With any piezo system, acoustic or electric, a preamplifier is essential to get a decent tone. Piezo pickups are very high output impedance devices (often higher than two Meg Ohm) and do not play nicely with most amps/input circuitry. They do work without, but sound very thin and scratchy"
Not sure that I agree that a preamp is necessary but it makes alot of sense otherwise. Also it corrects the wrong idea I've read elsewhere that the piezo and magnetic pups are like oil and water and do not mix well.

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Permalink Reply by Roosterman on September 5, 2009 at 9:59pm

Yup, I used a second hand Fender pre-amp in a build and it worked a treat - but I really like the effect of the switched piezo / mag pup / mix in my reso. It sounds more primal an dirrrrty.
Monsier Ratcliffe, I think, is defining a 'decent tone' from a non- cbgers point of view - and without the use of a tone pot which works equally well. Granted though, they do sound scratchy compared to a mag pup, but thats half the joy of it all :o)

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Permalink Reply by HOGS GRUNT on September 15, 2009 at 1:22am

I was very interested reading all the comments on this topic as I am in the middle of a build which is a resonator, with piezo, and a mini humbucker at the neck.
I will run the piezo through a Takemine pre-amp I got from ebay and I am running the two pups into telecaster control plate for pup switching etc..
I am glad that other people have tried this and it works 'cos I had no idea when I planned all this if it would work (wing and a prayer I think you call it!). Can't wait to get it finished, and try it, and just hope my son likes it and he will think it good enough to play on his gigs.
I will let you know how it turns out but don't hold your breath!!!

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Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on September 15, 2009 at 1:57am

what kind of piezo are you using? If you're using discs, I'd suggest that you wire 2 in series... you can get a little "tone" seperation that way.... one thru a tone pot doesn't do much... just a thought.

the best,

Sam

HOGS GRUNT said:

I was very interested reading all the comments on this topic as I am in the middle of a build which is a resonator, with piezo, and a mini humbucker at the neck.
I will run the piezo through a Takemine pre-amp I got from ebay and I am running the two pups into telecaster control plate for pup switching etc..
I am glad that other people have tried this and it works 'cos I had no idea when I planned all this if it would work (wing and a prayer I think you call it!). Can't wait to get it finished, and try it, and just hope my son likes it and he will think it good enough to play on his gigs.
I will let you know how it turns out but don't hold your breath!!!

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Permalink Reply by HOGS GRUNT on September 15, 2009 at 2:39am

Thanks Sam,
I will see what happens with original setup but I now have a plan 'B' to try.
Cheers,

Wichita Sam said:

what kind of piezo are you using? If you're using discs, I'd suggest that you wire 2 in series... you can get a little "tone" seperation that way.... one thru a tone pot doesn't do much... just a thought.

the best,

Sam

HOGS GRUNT said:
I was very interested reading all the comments on this topic as I am in the middle of a build which is a resonator, with piezo, and a mini humbucker at the neck.
I will run the piezo through a Takemine pre-amp I got from ebay and I am running the two pups into telecaster control plate for pup switching etc..
I am glad that other people have tried this and it works 'cos I had no idea when I planned all this if it would work (wing and a prayer I think you call it!). Can't wait to get it finished, and try it, and just hope my son likes it and he will think it good enough to play on his gigs.
I will let you know how it turns out but don't hold your breath!!!

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Permalink Reply by Roosterman on September 15, 2009 at 4:07am

Just to second what Sam said... I used 2 wired in series too. I was told it would help reduce feedback a little.

Looking forward to seeing your project hogs :o)

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Permalink Reply by HOGS GRUNT on September 15, 2009 at 4:13am

Me too.

Randy Rooster (Ben) said:

Just to second what Sam said... I used 2 wired in series too. I was told it would help reduce feedback a little.

Looking forward to seeing your project hogs :o)

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Permalink Reply by David L. on September 15, 2009 at 7:11am

Hi, It will sound great - I ran the output of 2 mini humbuckers plus piezo discs via a 5way switch through a takamine preamp and it works fine.

I found the preamp tends to gobble up batteries though - still a small price to pay for all the different tones you can get. I also added a small onboard amp and a couple of mylar speakers

Not sure if I'll bother again in future - if the preamp is used on a high setting the onboard speakers give feedback with the neck and piezo pickups (fine with the bridge mini humbucker though) All okay on lower settings but volume is (as you would expect from small speakers) a bit low. All sounds A1 through an external amp. I look forward to hearing how the resonator works out as my current project is a resonator. :) HOGS GRUNT said:

I was very interested reading all the comments on this topic as I am in the middle of a build which is a resonator, with piezo, and a mini humbucker at the neck.

I will run the piezo through a Takemine pre-amp I got from ebay and I am running the two pups into telecaster control plate for pup switching etc..
I am glad that other people have tried this and it works 'cos I had no idea when I planned all this if it would work (wing and a prayer I think you call it!). Can't wait to get it finished, and try it, and just hope my son likes it and he will think it good enough to play on his gigs.
I will let you know how it turns out but don't hold your breath!!!

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Permalink Reply by Outhouse Instruments on September 15, 2009 at 7:42am

I have a CBBass that I have a neck pup from a pbass in and a piezo buried inside under the bridge.
By itself the mag works fine, but at a slightly reduced rate. The piezo works by itself, but at a greatly reduced rate.
Blended, the piezo would probably act as a wound choke coil ... not a cap. The impedence differences reduces the out put of both. The mix gives to much for the piezo, not enuff for the mag.
If there is a way to get both signals to the jack with out them meeting each other ( diodes perhaps ?) it would be massive .... even as good as it is as is

The two work together fine with a pre-amp because the pre doesn't care whats coming in .... it uses the battery power to equalize what goes out.

Matt

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Permalink Reply by HOGS GRUNT on September 15, 2009 at 8:12am

That is one cool looking CBG man.
David Lloyd said:

Hi,

It will sound great - I ran the output of 2 mini humbuckers plus piezo discs via a 5way switch through a takamine preamp and it works fine.

I found the preamp tends to gobble up batteries though - still a small price to pay for all the different tones you can get.

I also added a small onboard amp and a couple of mylar speakers

Not sure if I'll bother again in future - if the preamp is used on a high setting the onboard speakers give feedback with the neck and piezo pickups (fine with the bridge mini humbucker though) All okay on lower settings but volume is (as you would expect from small speakers) a bit low. All sounds A1 through an external amp.

I look forward to hearing how the resonator works out as my current project is a resonator. :)

HOGS GRUNT said:

I was very interested reading all the comments on this topic as I am in the middle of a build which is a resonator, with piezo, and a mini humbucker at the neck.

I will run the piezo through a Takemine pre-amp I got from ebay and I am running the two pups into telecaster control plate for pup switching etc..
I am glad that other people have tried this and it works 'cos I had no idea when I planned all this if it would work (wing and a prayer I think you call it!). Can't wait to get it finished, and try it, and just hope my son likes it and he will think it good enough to play on his gigs.
I will let you know how it turns out but don't hold your breath!!!