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Question on fretting...

Posted by Jason Hollinden on December 27, 2010 at 1:14pm in Building Secrets, Tips, Advice, Discussion

Hi,

 

I just finished up my second CBG, and the 1st time I've tried fretting.  Basically what I did was measure my standard acoustic guitar, which had a 25.5" length, then I laid my CBG on top of it and copied the fret spacing over.  After I finished with the fretting, I strung it up and noticed an oddity.  I've seemed to have lost the 1st fret position.  For example, the octave is on the 11th and not the 12th, and it follows this all the way in either direction, so even the 1st fret sounds like a second.

 

The only thing I can think of that would cause this is I didn't get my bridge in the correct position?  Maybe if it were scooted out farther to make the string longer?  I had already gifted it before I found this out, so was looking for an idea to pass on.  They're already going to try the lengthening thing and will let me know if that works.  I can't really think what else would cause that.

 

Just for info, the nut is a 3/16" brass rod that I filed grooves in, and the bridge is a shell I saved from the 21 gun salute at my dad's funeral.  I know it's a really tall bridge and I had to do a lot of compensation for that with making the fret board higher, etc, but I wouldn't think that would cause it.  I would think it's just a matter of length from where the string touches on the nut and the bridge, correct?

 

Here's some pictures:

 

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Replies

  • Jason Hollinden December 28, 2010 at 8:37pm
    Just want to say thanks to all the info. Unfortunately I don't have it accessible to figure it out, but my brother (gifted to) said it was partially the bridge needing to be moved back, and partially the nut being too tall. The latter causing too much string bend.

    Thanks all for the fret links as well. I think I'm going to make up several neck-only mockups to train on fretting by measurement. One thing I definitely need to get is a good caliper, as measuring by 30' tape measure probably won't be good for this. :)
  • Outhouse Instruments December 28, 2010 at 9:44am

    The reason I asked for more info .....been there done that. I've got 2 carcasses that have been stripped and I rebuilt/re-boxed.

    AFKAM


    Uncle John said:

        I have one on my wall now that was so bad I took the frets out and play it fretless.   I had one that I stripped for parts.  

     

     

     

     



     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • Uncle John December 28, 2010 at 7:54am

    Jason, The Artist is right.  Lots of advice without enough info.  I wanted to help you, but I am no expert.  I have built around 12 fretted instruments and only half of them are what I can call good.  I have one on my wall now that was so bad I took the frets out and play it fretless.   I had one that I stripped for parts.  

     

    One thing true with me, it's a whole lot more fun to build than to do the final fine tuning and fixing.  Good luck and good wishes.

    Artist Formerly Known as Matt said:

    Sounds to me like you just don't have it tuned right.

    Whats your tuning?

    One thing I also see it lots of advice w/ out enuff info.

    What is your measurement from the nut to bridge?

    What's your measurement from the nut to the 12th fret.

    It also looks like the string height may be high ..... that could be causing the tuning to change as the strings are fretted.

     

     

    Matt

  • Uncle John December 28, 2010 at 7:42am
    Darn you, Don.  You are right.  I might try a short scale like a 20 inch.  Most of mine have been 24 inchers copied off an old Silvertone.  I think I will print off a shorter scale for my next build.  That may not be until it warms up a bit.  My shop is pretty cold.  Thanks!  Something new to try and look forward too.

    Don Thompson said:
    Uncle John,Overall I get disenchanted when well meaning folks say, "I copied the frets off of such and such" To me, at least, you are locked into finding instruments that is the scale you need. In other words you can't build a 20" scaled instrument if you don't have one to copy from. Tell the truth, you can't. You simply don't know where to begin. It makes no sense to me to not learn how to lay out your own scale and even less sense to say this is a good way to layout fret placement.  Fret to fret measurements are fraught with error. One learns nothing. Maybe I just don't get it.
  • Outhouse Instruments December 28, 2010 at 1:47am

    Sounds to me like you just don't have it tuned right.

    Whats your tuning?

    One thing I also see it lots of advice w/ out enuff info.

    What is your measurement from the nut to bridge?

    What's your measurement from the nut to the 12th fret.

    It also looks like the string height may be high ..... that could be causing the tuning to change as the strings are fretted.

     

     

    Matt

  • Robert Gillespie December 27, 2010 at 11:18pm

    I just remebered that stewartmcdonald.com has a fret board calculator. You give the scale length and it tells you the fret positions. This might help you know where to put the bridge to match your frets. I used it to install a prefretted neck on another guitar. I got pretty close... Hope this helps.

  • Robert Gillespie December 27, 2010 at 11:15pm
    It looks like you already have some good sound info from the others. I just thought I would say, that is the coolest idea for a bridge I have seen. Great way to incorporate something very personal in your work.
  • Don Thompson December 27, 2010 at 6:50pm
    Uncle John,Overall I get disenchanted when well meaning folks say, "I copied the frets off of such and such" To me, at least, you are locked into finding instruments that is the scale you need. In other words you can't build a 20" scaled instrument if you don't have one to copy from. Tell the truth, you can't. You simply don't know where to begin. It makes no sense to me to not learn how to lay out your own scale and even less sense to say this is a good way to layout fret placement.  Fret to fret measurements are fraught with error. One learns nothing. Maybe I just don't get it.
  • Don Thompson December 27, 2010 at 6:35pm
    I see string trees on the headstock.

    Uncle John said:
    Ok, on 2nd look,  do you have string grooves in the saddle?   Probably need them.  And the angle from nut to machine head tuners may be a problem.  I run into that on some builds and do not quite understand it,  But some kind of string lowering mechanism above the nut often fixes things.  If you look at photos on the nation you will likely see various screws, bars, etc., to lower the strings between the nut and tuners....    Not sure this is the problem, but it looks like a maybe.
  • Diane in Chicago December 27, 2010 at 3:47pm

    I use this calculator that prints a PDF template for you.  It does not include the bridge, but I always put it on there anyway because it helps me visualize how long I'll need to make the fingerboard so I get a nice, playable instrument. 

     

    http://cigarboxguitars.com/fretfind/nonparallel.php

     

    This calculator lets you select number of strings and string spacing.  You can just go with the preset numbers to start, all you are interested in is the fret placement.  Select Multi-page-PDF on the output page, tape your pages together and doublecheck that the 12th fret is 1/2 of your original scale length number.  So for example, if you are making a 24" instrument, be sure the 12th fret is 12" from the nut/zero on your template after you've taped together.  Then mark your 24" on there too, to give you an idea where your floating bridge will end up.

     

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