Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dirty Dan Peel on May 20, 2011 at 8:15am

Yeah, Mike Snowden is great. I've seen his stuff before and its helped alot. As far as everything else, you guys have been a great help. I feel like things are now coming together a little more for me and I appreciate all the time and patiance you guys have given me.

I understand the Beatles song is in the key of A and I'm in G, but I'm not too worried about playing along with the record right now. If the need arises I guess I could always retune to an open A. Anyways now that I got some idea, I'll start practicing the one song until I get it. When I do, I'll record it and post my results. Soon as I find a way to record it. LOL.

Thanks,

Dan

Permalink Reply by Dirty Dan Peel on May 20, 2011 at 8:16am

whoops

Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on May 20, 2011 at 8:45am

Dear Michael Glenn,

 

please do not be offended by my comments.  I have no intention of starting any kind of flame war.   In my opinion you are incorrect, not I.   Melodies are made of scales, not chromatic runs. And accidentals are best dealt with one at a time.   After we practice this scale and chords a while we can target the mixolydian mode.  At this point we will have one accidental, a flat 7.  Then, after locking that in, we add a flat 3 and tackle a dorian.  A key to teaching music is a little bit at a time.   Music is HARD.  I know, Ive taught it a long time.  Nothing discourages students like overloading them, less is more.

 

People are free to think and do whatever they wish, but a key part of what i typed up there is 'dont worry about the sharps and flats, practice these 3 chords and these 2 scales.'      and 'to play a song you found on the internet print this out, cut here, punch holes there, do this, do that'  

Permalink Reply by Dirty Dan Peel on May 20, 2011 at 11:13am

Ok so does this mean I now play the song with G C D (according to open G's i iv v) instead of the original A D E. Or do I still play the A D E chords as they are on my open G tuned insturment?

Sorry for all the questions.

Jef Long said:

ok excellent..

 

step 5 means get the bit of paper with thats alright mama, and where there is an A, write a (i) next to/ above etc,  a (iv) next to the D's etc..     Well you can write  (iv7) cos the chart wants a D7 but for now you can just use the (iv) shape I gave you.  Yes ppl will know the tune.  It'll work.   Only thing is, you're in the key of G, and the Beatles (at least according to your chart) are in the key of A.   So it'll sound the same tune, but it'll be out of tune with the original record, you cant play along with the record..  

until you add a capo !! thats where Michael's chart comes in ;)

 

so by chord chart, i do not mean the diagrams i put up, i mean the chord chart for the tune, converting the notes in this case A, D & E to the numbers i, iv and v.     What you have done is transpose the tune to the key your instrument is in, so you can get by with only those 3 shapes and those 2 scales.. 

Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on May 20, 2011 at 12:27pm

all good mate.   What it means is FORGET THE STINKIN LETTERS !!!!  ha ok ?

cross em out !!

write the three roman numerals in their place and go !!

 

actually you're spot on, you will indeed be playing GCD in place of ADE, this is exactly correct, bravo.    But you do not need to be thinking like this.  Let the letters go.  Your next build may not be in G.  It may be in A or E.  But the romans will be in exactly the same places.. Think in romans (scale degrees) , trust me

 

Just to clarify from before, where i said ignore the accidentals, (♭♯) these are accidentals..

so if you have a chord that says G7 and that slide rule calls G a (i) then write i7..

but if it says for example B♭7  or  B♭m  and the slide rule is calling B a (ⅳ) for example ( remember we can ignore the  "♭" part) then you need to write ⅳ7 or ⅳm

ok?

this is because the accidental is part of the pitch, along with the letter, the other stuff after it (7, sus4, m, m7, dim, aug, etc etc) is more specific information about the chord.  Write that stuff after the roman numeral, then come and bug me or Michael, how do I make  ⅵ minor chord? if and when you have to.  You'll find those 3 shapes i gave you there will be plenty to get you started tho.

 

I will get onto a video soon that will open it all up for you ok :)

Permalink Reply by Dirty Dan Peel on May 20, 2011 at 1:23pm

CLICK! Thanks bro! Thats what I figured and how I been doing it the past hour or so. It's actually making sense now and I should have enough to keep me busy for a while now. I dropped the Beatles song and picked something I felt was easier (In The Summertime). It's actually started to sound right, and singing along like Witchata Sam said too (I beleive it was him or maybe ED) is actually helping. This should all keep me busy on into next week.

I read alot about the i iv v thing but never really saw a way to use it. But your magic ruler has cleared it up. That thing kicks ass. Thanks again Jef. I'll keep you posted on my progress in the coming days.

Also thanks to Micheal, I know a little more about reading actual notes now. This will help when I'm ready for picking.

Permalink Reply by Michael Glenn on May 20, 2011 at 2:04pm

Hey Jef,

 

Don't worry about it. Honestly I was miffed to see you say my info was of limited use, but then I realized I'm also not trying to teach as much theory as you are.  So in a manner of speaking what you're saying is correct. 

 

I just think it's easier for a beginner to learn how to read music and find the notes he wants on his guitar, for that song as it's written.  I don't think you need to know all the scales and how they're formed and what they look like - if you just want to play a song.  I took guitar lessons years ago and had to study scales for months!  And quit because all I wanted to do at the time was play songs.  So, we're both just offering different approaches, tailored to different learning styles.

 

There is definitely a time and place to learn scales, transposing, etc.  Your approach pays off in the long run but for the guy that "just wants to pick up and play," the stuff I've put together will have them doing that in around 15-30 minutes.  Then when they're ready for more they can tackle scales, transposing, etc.

 

I think we just see it differently.  IMO your method is geared more toward the serious student.  Mine is for the absolute "just show me how to start without loading me down with a bunch of theory" beginner.  I actually agree with you that what I have right now is of limited use - but it's plenty for the person who just wants to pick up and play a couple songs now and then.  I don't believe that the casual player needs to learn all the theory right up front, as long as they know where the notes are on their guitar they can play any melody, and if they know how to play Major, minor and 7th chords as well, everything else can come later.

 

I don't object at all to what you're teaching, only to your "this is the only way to do it" approach.

 

Regards,

Michael

 

Jef Long said:

Dear Michael Glenn,

 

please do not be offended by my comments.  I have no intention of starting any kind of flame war.   In my opinion you are incorrect, not I.   Melodies are made of scales, not chromatic runs. And accidentals are best dealt with one at a time.   After we practice this scale and chords a while we can target the mixolydian mode.  At this point we will have one accidental, a flat 7.  Then, after locking that in, we add a flat 3 and tackle a dorian.  A key to teaching music is a little bit at a time.   Music is HARD.  I know, Ive taught it a long time.  Nothing discourages students like overloading them, less is more.

 

People are free to think and do whatever they wish, but a key part of what i typed up there is 'dont worry about the sharps and flats, practice these 3 chords and these 2 scales.'      and 'to play a song you found on the internet print this out, cut here, punch holes there, do this, do that'  

Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on May 21, 2011 at 8:45pm

Perhaps we are both guilty of a little dogma mate.

I do admire what you're doing, when you first turned up advocating a song book expressed in scale degrees I was your biggest fan.   But I'm of the opinion you have lost your way, arguing that beginners are better taught to read the score is a complete about face imho.  Try to understand, I have examined many many method books.  I am an accredited teacher of several instruments in my home state.  I am not such a little man to cite my qualifications to you but feel free to ask around about me. I too 'had to study scales for months'  ..  :D   I have my own opinions about the shortcomings of many guitar and fretted instrument methods in general, people are often self taught on these instruments, and their approach is often very 'chord-centric'  its very tempting on an instrument which is so complex to succumb to the temptation of the chord box and 'muscle memory'  unfortunately when you know a C and are then called for a Cm or a C7 you have to start again.   Piano students on the other hand will typically run scales for a year before they even build a C major.   When they're called for a Cm, its easy.  Or a Am.. etc.     On a fretted instrument, following a 'chord box' and 'muscle memory' approach, each chord, tho easily learned, is a separate entry in a big, messy database in your mind.  And the only way that they are not is if they are a cumbersome and difficult movable shape 'barre chord'..

 

As I said above, Ive no intention of getting into any kind of flame war.  Life is too short.  But I think you have put a lot of effort into this website of yours, and your pride will not let you examine other ways of thinking that will negate the impact of that hard work.  I'm of the opinion that you could benefit a great deal in your stated goals if you swallow your pride, open your mind and really examine what I'm saying.   You're a smart guy.

 

Your argument that my methods are more suited to a 'more serious student'   is one Ive heard before.  I feel people are far better off with three chord shapes and a scale than a book or a page full.  Imagine if the old lady next door has trouble starting her car.   Do you show her the battery, the starter motor and the ignition lock as the three potential problems, or do you give her the entire manual ?   And you know what ??   I'll take that 15-30 minutes pepsi challenge with a new beginner any time you're ready :)  Cos my answer I put here is also designed with that goal.  And like you, I am also putting forward the argument that I have studied, put a lot of thought into it.   Teaching music is not playing music, there are awesome, accomplished musicians who are not a teachers backside, and there are great teachers who are not accomplished players.  Teaching music is something I have been doing for a job ( tho not always my full time job) for a long time.

 

At the music store I teach at every week I often lose my very promising students to a different teacher every year, only to be given a fresh batch of four and five year old children.   It used to puzzle me until I spoke to a few mothers in there and they told me they had been told I was no longer available for their child the next year.  Its because I get the results from the very young kids, and the younger less experienced teachers get all the teenage hotshots, the store keeps me back for the younger kids cos I get them into it, trap them as a customer for the next several years..

 

and so I actually think I have a gift for breaking it down into simple concepts.  I also know that in order to capture a students attention I need to get him to the point of self gratitfication, and FAST.   The sooner the sounds he is getting out of his instrument are pleasing to his own ears, the more he'll practice, the better he'll do, it's a snowball on a hill mate. 

 

It was never my intent to single you out, Im sorry I said 'charts like Michael has given you'   but you know, what Im saying to these guys is 'clear your mind, all these sharps and flats and shit are a nightmare huh?  ok i wanna work with numbers one to seven.  you know about counting, right?  '

 

also, be aware that I have been quietly working on my own 3 string guitar method for a year or two.  It is not published, not a work in progress which is already in the public eye, it will go public when it is complete.   It is targeted at the many many people for whom the 3 string guitar is attractive because they have tried and given up years before on a more complex instrument.   I feel many of the 'teachers'  in these forums teach more to help someone who can already play a 6 string.   To me thats pointless, if you can play a 6 string and you cant work out a 3 string, well you cant really play a 6 string much at all can you ?  (cos you're not 'playing'  you're a 'cord box' and 'muscle memory' guy, see above..)  Also there is a big movement on here of people who's eyes glaze over as soon as you try to explain anything .   They have tried to understand it before, and failed, and a lot of them will be quite vocal in jumping up on here and writing exactly that.   'Oh dont give me the THEORY, thats all too hard' what they really mean is  'I wanna reserve the right to dumbly ask for another chord in a few months and wait for someone who has gone to the trouble to understand it to come to my rescue, and then I'll belittle him again for going to the effort of making me self sufficient.'  To these guys 'Theory' is like 'garlic' might be to a vampire.   And yet they wanna play.  Its comical really,  and its because people overcomplicate their answers.  Give em theory, but only give em a pinch.  So no, I am not trying to teach em theory.   Im showing em 3 chords and 2 scales, one of which is derived from the other.   Thats it. In fact, I think you are trying to teach em too much theory,giving em all twelve dominant seven chords for example..   They need a i7 and a v7 only to get started mate.  And personally, Id show em a i and a v first..   Then when you drop in a 7 maybe u'll understand what a 7 is.., and you're not even bashing em on the head with it...  3 string guitar is great for this, imho

 

PS the scale is the building block of music.  Chords are built from scales.  Grab a few chords, work out 'knockin on heavens door'   sure.  its fun.  See spot run.   cant learn to read without an alphabet tho...  Learn to make the scale fun.

 

Michael Glenn said:

Hey Jef,

 

Don't worry about it. Honestly I was miffed to see you say my info was of limited use, but then I realized I'm also not trying to teach as much theory as you are.  So in a manner of speaking what you're saying is correct. 

 

I just think it's easier for a beginner to learn how to read music and find the notes he wants on his guitar, for that song as it's written.  I don't think you need to know all the scales and how they're formed and what they look like - if you just want to play a song.  I took guitar lessons years ago and had to study scales for months!  And quit because all I wanted to do at the time was play songs.  So, we're both just offering different approaches, tailored to different learning styles.

 

There is definitely a time and place to learn scales, transposing, etc.  Your approach pays off in the long run but for the guy that "just wants to pick up and play," the stuff I've put together will have them doing that in around 15-30 minutes.  Then when they're ready for more they can tackle scales, transposing, etc.

 

I think we just see it differently.  IMO your method is geared more toward the serious student.  Mine is for the absolute "just show me how to start without loading me down with a bunch of theory" beginner.  I actually agree with you that what I have right now is of limited use - but it's plenty for the person who just wants to pick up and play a couple songs now and then.  I don't believe that the casual player needs to learn all the theory right up front, as long as they know where the notes are on their guitar they can play any melody, and if they know how to play Major, minor and 7th chords as well, everything else can come later.

 

I don't object at all to what you're teaching, only to your "this is the only way to do it" approach.

 

Regards,

Michael

 

Jef Long said:

Dear Michael Glenn,

 

please do not be offended by my comments.  I have no intention of starting any kind of flame war.   In my opinion you are incorrect, not I.   Melodies are made of scales, not chromatic runs. And accidentals are best dealt with one at a time.   After we practice this scale and chords a while we can target the mixolydian mode.  At this point we will have one accidental, a flat 7.  Then, after locking that in, we add a flat 3 and tackle a dorian.  A key to teaching music is a little bit at a time.   Music is HARD.  I know, Ive taught it a long time.  Nothing discourages students like overloading them, less is more.

 

People are free to think and do whatever they wish, but a key part of what i typed up there is 'dont worry about the sharps and flats, practice these 3 chords and these 2 scales.'      and 'to play a song you found on the internet print this out, cut here, punch holes there, do this, do that'  

Permalink Reply by Wichita Sam on May 22, 2011 at 2:56am

Oh, my brothers,

 

I've been silently watching the conversation and I can honestly say that "you're both right."  The issue may be better seen from the prospective of the learner.  Some want to... and have the time and giftedness to... become "musicians".  Others only want to play songs/tunes to the level of their current ability and the time to perfect their performance.

 

There is room for teachers and systems for teaching both kind of learners... CBGs make music/playing/performance available to a much bigger group of learners than almost any other instrument I have ever come across.

 

the best,

 

Wichita (fan of all teachers and learners)  Sam 

Permalink Reply by Michael Glenn on May 22, 2011 at 4:29am

Hi Wichita Sam,

 

Thanks for jumping in.  I've been thinking about this conversation all weekend and I realized this morning exactly what you just said.  I was being defensive and didn't take the time to really examine what Jef was saying, instead I just "ran my mouth" so to speak, and I regret that.

 

Jef, I am truly sorry for snapping at you.  I think we're all here to learn/share/connect with other CBG-ers, and I lost focus of that fact.  (And poor Dan has had to suffer through all of our back and forth as well.) 

 

I do appreciate your feedback.  Honestly it's made me evaluate what my goals are, and how the information I've put together is in or out of alignment with those goals. 

 

Again, I am truly sorry.  I made a spur-of-the-moment judgment early on, and I was wrong.  I would much rather be friends and colleagues, and share in open dialogue, than end up constantly at each other's throats.

 

Sincerely,

Michael

Permalink Reply by Dirty Dan Peel on May 22, 2011 at 11:44am

Well, as the guy who started this discussion I must say I found both of your instructions to be very helpful and I'm sure I'll use it all as time goes on. But for now I've been following along with Jef's instruction and its been working for me.

 

I want you to UNderstand Micheal that this says nothing against you. Your information is very helpful its just that my learning style seems to match Jef's teaching style. I do just want to play songs, but I'm also interested in writing my own songs and performing before a select audiance (family and friends) and Jef's style of teaching has just connected with me more. But I also intend to keep track of everything you post, Michael, the two of you have seemed to be the most beginner friendly of most anything I've seen to date.

Thanks to you both,

Dan.

PS I hope this dosn't sound in the negative to you Micheal. It wasn't meant to be felt that way. Texting is just a very poor way of getting ones meaning across. ANd I appreciate any continued help and instruction you may wish to give.

Permalink Reply by Dirty Dan Peel on May 22, 2011 at 11:48am

Oh, And thanks Witchata Sam for jumping in and attempting to medaite things here. This is the last place for any negativity. We all just want to learn and play!

Peace,

Dan

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