Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dan Sleep on July 19, 2011 at 5:02pm

I usually us 24 inch for most of my builds.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kevin Adams on July 19, 2011 at 6:31pm

Thanks Dan;

I have another question and I hope did doesn't sound too stupid. When I used a fret calculator program and they got printed out,  when I messured to the 12th fret it was not in the middle of the scale.

Is the right or did I o something wrong?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Seaman Jay on July 19, 2011 at 8:41pm

(on a normally fretted guitar) the 12th fret is the middle of the string.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by ChickenboneJohn on July 19, 2011 at 9:45pm

When you include some compensation, just a few mm, it means the 12th fret isn't EXACTLY halfway along the string.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Seaman Jay on July 19, 2011 at 10:29pm

Well, John, could you elaborate a bit? You're basically right, and I'm not in position to argue with you and your experience, sir, but do the fret calculation programs take the compensation into account?

 

BTW: Found something like this - is it what you meant?:

http://www.ukuleles.com/Technology/compensate.html

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Don Thompson on July 21, 2011 at 11:56am

24" fret scale Printable   fret     from nut     fret to fret    1   1.347"   1.347"  (nut-1)   2   2.618"   1.271"  (1-2)   3   3.818"   1.200"  (2-3)   4   4.951"   1.133"  (3-4)   5   6.020"   1.069"  (4-5)   6   7.029"   1.009"  (5-6)   7   7.982"   0.953"  (6-7)   8   8.881"   0.899"  (7-8)   9   9.730"   0.849"  (8-9)   10   10.530"   0.800"  (9-10)   11   11.286"   0.756"  (10-11)   12   12.000"   0.714"  (11-12)   13   12.674"   0.674"  (12-13)   14   13.309"   0.635"  (13-14)   15   13.909"   0.600"  (14-15)   16   14.476"   0.567"  (15-16)   17   15.010"   0.534"  (16-17)   18   15.515"   0.505"  (17-18)   19   15.991"   0.476"  (18-19)   20   16.440"   0.449"  (19-20)   21   16.865"   0.425"  (20-21)

Notes on fret layout The most accurate way to lay out your scale is making all measurements from the nut (using the "fret to fret" distance only to confirm your layout). Laying out frets only by measuring fret to fret will compound error. For example, if you're laying out frets by marking with a scribe and your accuracy is plus or minus 2 millimeters, you could be off by as much as 24 millimeters at the 12th fret. Measurements are given from the end of the fingerboard (face of the nut) to the center of a fret slot.

 On a 24 inch scale instrument the 12th fret will be at exactly 12 inches. Compensation is done at the saddle.

Don

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by FretMonkey on July 21, 2011 at 2:03pm

I have a somewhat related question (sorry if it's a thread jack)  I just built my first CBG and I am thinking of fretting it.  I know that you measure from the end of the nut to the begginning of the first fret.  But I am using a large bolt for a nut and the string contact is in the middle of the bolt - should I still measure from the end of the bolt or from the middle (contact point of the string)? 

 

Thanks - for any tips.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on July 22, 2011 at 2:32am

FM,
Technically, you should measure from the point of contact at the nut, to the center of each fret, to the point of contact at the bridge, for mathematically "correct" intonation. Realistically, if you measure from the end of the nut, you are effectively inducing compensation by a few millimeters, and so would need to adjust a tad (tad is a technical term, meaning a few mm ;-) ), at each fret. Another way to make this adjustment is with playing technique. Where you place your fingers behind the fret, and how you press down (absolutely vertically, slightly sideways, really yanking the string for a "blue" note, etc.) can also affect the actual note value. Most longtime guitar players subtly vary their finger position behind the fret to get a tone that sounds good to the human ear. If you measure the resulting note with a chromatic tuner, you might find it is actually a few cents sharp, or flat, depending.

There are a couple of reasons for this: 1) commercially fretted guitar necks, with the exceptions of some fan fretted or offset fretted experimental types that seek to arrive at "just," as opposed to equally tempered tuning, are not perfectly, mathematically fretted and manufactured for perfect intonation. There are always build compromises, manufacturing slip ups, etc. That's why many electric guitars have individually adjustable saddles, and why many acoustics have compensated saddles: to adjust for minor intonation inconsistencies. 2) The human ear and brain doesn't actually respond well to perfect musical pitches. We like a few cents of overtone, harmonics, even a bit (or for some people, a lot) of distortion, vibrato, tremelo, what have you.

So you can get mathematically correct in your build, or you can slightly adjust your playing technique, or you can do a little of both.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by FretMonkey on July 22, 2011 at 5:56am

Great answer - thank you so much....I won't sweat the small stuff hehe :)  Peace!

oilyfool said:

FM,
Technically, you should measure from the point of contact at the nut, to the center of each fret, to the point of contact at the bridge, for mathematically "correct" intonation. Realistically, if you measure from the end of the nut, you are effectively inducing compensation by a few millimeters, and so would need to adjust a tad (tad is a technical term, meaning a few mm ;-) ), at each fret. Another way to make this adjustment is with playing technique. Where you place your fingers behind the fret, and how you press down (absolutely vertically, slightly sideways, really yanking the string for a "blue" note, etc.) can also affect the actual note value. Most longtime guitar players subtly vary their finger position behind the fret to get a tone that sounds good to the human ear. If you measure the resulting note with a chromatic tuner, you might find it is actually a few cents sharp, or flat, depending.

There are a couple of reasons for this: 1) commercially fretted guitar necks, with the exceptions of some fan fretted or offset fretted experimental types that seek to arrive at "just," as opposed to equally tempered tuning, are not perfectly, mathematically fretted and manufactured for perfect intonation. There are always build compromises, manufacturing slip ups, etc. That's why many electric guitars have individually adjustable saddles, and why many acoustics have compensated saddles: to adjust for minor intonation inconsistencies. 2) The human ear and brain doesn't actually respond well to perfect musical pitches. We like a few cents of overtone, harmonics, even a bit (or for some people, a lot) of distortion, vibrato, tremelo, what have you.

So you can get mathematically correct in your build, or you can slightly adjust your playing technique, or you can do a little of both.

• ▶ Reply