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diatonically fretted Cigar Box guitar

Posted by Jai on September 7, 2010 at 1:37am in Building Secrets, Tips, Advice, Discussion
Hi,

I am new to CBGs. I am planning to make my first CBG. I am wondering how do I get my CBG to be diatonically fretted so that I cant play a "wrong" note. Any advice? I am planning to buy a standard set of guitar strings and make either a 3 or 2 string CBG. Thank you.


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Replies

  • Diane in Chicago September 9, 2010 at 11:42am
    You need all the frets listed on your StewMac Dulcimer printout. They've already done the work for you.

    Play later, like the man says. Build now and we'll cross those other bridges when you get there.

    There are on-line tuners you can use this weekend, if you get that far. Don't worry about the tuner just now.

    The strings in a guitar set are not the same size, there are thin ones and fat ones in the same set, all different. They are chosen to get specific note for each string. You'll use three of those strings, and save the other three for another build. Lots of people just use the three thinnest ones, and that is generally a good starting place. The other three will make your next instrument, because there WILL be more.

    Jai said:
    Hi,

    I so far get the idea, but I am wondering how do I know which Frets I need or don't need. Could you advice me on that? I am going to start work on the guitar this weekend. Also, when I play, the purpose of the frets are to make a certain note and know where it is right? If it is fretless, you pretty much have to guess where the notes are? Am i right to say that? So I would press down at the fret (or near the fret?) and play the strings? Also you mentioned run the melody up the thinnest string. How does that work? Are'nt the strings around same thickness? I am still waiting on my guitar strings order. How do i also tune them to DAD? or GAG? from a regular set of guitar strings? I am pretty sure I need to buy a tuner or something right? Thanks.



    Diane in Chicago said:
    Yes with a 3 string diatonic, you pretty much have a nice chord wherever you play. If you run the melody up the thinnest string, you get a nice drone on the other two strings. If you play the melody over all three strings, you get lots of different chords from the two two strings you are not fretting at the time. There is a dulcimer chord chart floating around here, I'll steer you there when your instrument is done.

    Meanwhile, as far as number of frets: I put in a silly number into the calculator and then just use the ones I need. I rarely play up the neck on this, those frets are mostly for visuals. So put in 24 frets, and just start measuring until you run out of fingerboard.

    Also, always measure nut-to-fret, not fret-to-fret so you don''t compound small measuring errors and have it completely off further up the neck -- where errors are particularly grating.

    Jai said:
    Hi,

    thanks for the reply. So technically it is the key that I play and the fretting. So should I build a 21 inch one, with 16 frets? I tried to put this in the fret calculator. I should not be having 18 frets for a diatonic fretting right? You mentioned 8 is my halfway point. So my 8th fret will be 10.5 inches from the nut? I also looked at mcnally strumstick page and he said that the other two strings harmonizes with whatever played on the fretted string to make a chord. Thanks everyone so far for making so much effort to respond to me, I already feel like I am part of a helpful community :)

    Diane in Chicago said:
    I agree, 25" is pretty long. I'd go with something shorter. Also keeps the neck from warping if it is shorter and looks better with the small soundbox.

    Mungo Park said:
    The first CBG I built had a 25ish length neck, with hind sight it was wayyy to long for the box, try thinking about something in the 19-22" scale, like maybe 21 which has been a good length and sound for me. Easier to reach, easier to hold better balanced, still sounds great. Just something to think about since it is a CBG not a strat, but hey, no rules so you might like the longer neck and I don't.
    Search for the diatonic scale some good threads on it. 3 strings is a good middle of the road place to start
    Should be a few answerers in this somewhere:
    http://www.cigarboxnation.com/main/search/search?q=diatonic+scale

    Cheers Ron.
  • Roger Martin September 9, 2010 at 10:26am
    My suggestion is to maybe do what I did when I 1st built a few CBG's. I just grabbed a dulcimer that I have and measured all the fret marks off of it.I built the CBG with EXACTLY the same length neck, and all marks ,bridge etc just like the original dulcimer .I then transferred the measurements to the box I was using making sure all was spaced like the dulcimer.
    I dont worry about the neck being too long or too short as long as the marks are right.Diane builds a much nicer cleaner CBG then I do and you cant go wrong going by what she suggests.
    I go for the simplest build I can to get more builds in the amount of time I have to build.
  • Mungo Park September 9, 2010 at 10:20am
    Build first, play later.
    I think I remember the frets you want are from the nut on down the neck 2,4,5,7,9,11 and you can put in 12 as a optional to help with tuning and set up. If you want more repeat the pattern, depending on the scale length.
    You can buy a tuner or just "eyeball" it to fit your taste, once you get it built that is. Dad or GDG like Diane mentioned above is a good starting point, after you get it built that is.
    Go to a music store and look at and plunk a few and see what they look like just so you can get a feel for things stringed. I went and looked at a bunch to see how high the strings are and how they are spaced apart called "action", course I then built it how I wanted with the no rules clause.
    Cheers Ron.
  • Jai September 9, 2010 at 10:03am
    Hi,

    I so far get the idea, but I am wondering how do I know which Frets I need or don't need. Could you advice me on that? I am going to start work on the guitar this weekend. Also, when I play, the purpose of the frets are to make a certain note and know where it is right? If it is fretless, you pretty much have to guess where the notes are? Am i right to say that? So I would press down at the fret (or near the fret?) and play the strings? Also you mentioned run the melody up the thinnest string. How does that work? Are'nt the strings around same thickness? I am still waiting on my guitar strings order. How do i also tune them to DAD? or GAG? from a regular set of guitar strings? I am pretty sure I need to buy a tuner or something right? Thanks.



    Diane in Chicago said:
    Yes with a 3 string diatonic, you pretty much have a nice chord wherever you play. If you run the melody up the thinnest string, you get a nice drone on the other two strings. If you play the melody over all three strings, you get lots of different chords from the two two strings you are not fretting at the time. There is a dulcimer chord chart floating around here, I'll steer you there when your instrument is done.

    Meanwhile, as far as number of frets: I put in a silly number into the calculator and then just use the ones I need. I rarely play up the neck on this, those frets are mostly for visuals. So put in 24 frets, and just start measuring until you run out of fingerboard.

    Also, always measure nut-to-fret, not fret-to-fret so you don''t compound small measuring errors and have it completely off further up the neck -- where errors are particularly grating.

    Jai said:
    Hi,

    thanks for the reply. So technically it is the key that I play and the fretting. So should I build a 21 inch one, with 16 frets? I tried to put this in the fret calculator. I should not be having 18 frets for a diatonic fretting right? You mentioned 8 is my halfway point. So my 8th fret will be 10.5 inches from the nut? I also looked at mcnally strumstick page and he said that the other two strings harmonizes with whatever played on the fretted string to make a chord. Thanks everyone so far for making so much effort to respond to me, I already feel like I am part of a helpful community :)

    Diane in Chicago said:
    I agree, 25" is pretty long. I'd go with something shorter. Also keeps the neck from warping if it is shorter and looks better with the small soundbox.

    Mungo Park said:
    The first CBG I built had a 25ish length neck, with hind sight it was wayyy to long for the box, try thinking about something in the 19-22" scale, like maybe 21 which has been a good length and sound for me. Easier to reach, easier to hold better balanced, still sounds great. Just something to think about since it is a CBG not a strat, but hey, no rules so you might like the longer neck and I don't.
    Search for the diatonic scale some good threads on it. 3 strings is a good middle of the road place to start
    Should be a few answerers in this somewhere:
    http://www.cigarboxnation.com/main/search/search?q=diatonic+scale

    Cheers Ron.
  • Diane in Chicago September 9, 2010 at 8:43am
    Yes with a 3 string diatonic, you pretty much have a nice chord wherever you play. If you run the melody up the thinnest string, you get a nice drone on the other two strings. If you play the melody over all three strings, you get lots of different chords from the two two strings you are not fretting at the time. There is a dulcimer chord chart floating around here, I'll steer you there when your instrument is done.

    Meanwhile, as far as number of frets: I put in a silly number into the calculator and then just use the ones I need. I rarely play up the neck on this, those frets are mostly for visuals. So put in 24 frets, and just start measuring until you run out of fingerboard.

    Also, always measure nut-to-fret, not fret-to-fret so you don''t compound small measuring errors and have it completely off further up the neck -- where errors are particularly grating.

    Jai said:
    Hi,

    thanks for the reply. So technically it is the key that I play and the fretting. So should I build a 21 inch one, with 16 frets? I tried to put this in the fret calculator. I should not be having 18 frets for a diatonic fretting right? You mentioned 8 is my halfway point. So my 8th fret will be 10.5 inches from the nut? I also looked at mcnally strumstick page and he said that the other two strings harmonizes with whatever played on the fretted string to make a chord. Thanks everyone so far for making so much effort to respond to me, I already feel like I am part of a helpful community :)

    Diane in Chicago said:
    I agree, 25" is pretty long. I'd go with something shorter. Also keeps the neck from warping if it is shorter and looks better with the small soundbox.

    Mungo Park said:
    The first CBG I built had a 25ish length neck, with hind sight it was wayyy to long for the box, try thinking about something in the 19-22" scale, like maybe 21 which has been a good length and sound for me. Easier to reach, easier to hold better balanced, still sounds great. Just something to think about since it is a CBG not a strat, but hey, no rules so you might like the longer neck and I don't.
    Search for the diatonic scale some good threads on it. 3 strings is a good middle of the road place to start
    Should be a few answerers in this somewhere:
    http://www.cigarboxnation.com/main/search/search?q=diatonic+scale

    Cheers Ron.
  • Jai September 9, 2010 at 1:51am
    Hi,

    thanks for the reply. So technically it is the key that I play and the fretting. So should I build a 21 inch one, with 16 frets? I tried to put this in the fret calculator. I should not be having 18 frets for a diatonic fretting right? You mentioned 8 is my halfway point. So my 8th fret will be 10.5 inches from the nut? I also looked at mcnally strumstick page and he said that the other two strings harmonizes with whatever played on the fretted string to make a chord. Thanks everyone so far for making so much effort to respond to me, I already feel like I am part of a helpful community :)

    Diane in Chicago said:
    I agree, 25" is pretty long. I'd go with something shorter. Also keeps the neck from warping if it is shorter and looks better with the small soundbox.

    Mungo Park said:
    The first CBG I built had a 25ish length neck, with hind sight it was wayyy to long for the box, try thinking about something in the 19-22" scale, like maybe 21 which has been a good length and sound for me. Easier to reach, easier to hold better balanced, still sounds great. Just something to think about since it is a CBG not a strat, but hey, no rules so you might like the longer neck and I don't.
    Search for the diatonic scale some good threads on it. 3 strings is a good middle of the road place to start
    Should be a few answerers in this somewhere:
    http://www.cigarboxnation.com/main/search/search?q=diatonic+scale

    Cheers Ron.
  • Diane in Chicago September 8, 2010 at 11:29pm
    I agree, 25" is pretty long. I'd go with something shorter. Also keeps the neck from warping if it is shorter and looks better with the small soundbox.

    Mungo Park said:
    The first CBG I built had a 25ish length neck, with hind sight it was wayyy to long for the box, try thinking about something in the 19-22" scale, like maybe 21 which has been a good length and sound for me. Easier to reach, easier to hold better balanced, still sounds great. Just something to think about since it is a CBG not a strat, but hey, no rules so you might like the longer neck and I don't.
    Search for the diatonic scale some good threads on it. 3 strings is a good middle of the road place to start
    Should be a few answerers in this somewhere:
    http://www.cigarboxnation.com/main/search/search?q=diatonic+scale

    Cheers Ron.
  • Diane in Chicago September 8, 2010 at 11:27pm
    If you selected diatonic/dulcimer on the stew mac site, your octave will be at 8, which they show in red. A chromatic/guitar will have the 12th fret as the octave. So the 8th fret is your halfway mark.

    Diatonic fretting means that you only have certain notes, much like playing in the key of C and using only white keys on your piano. If you only play the white keys you can't play f# which would be considered a "wrong" note in the key of C.

    A diatonic instrument is generally tuned to a specific key (for example D) and only the notes of the D scale are playable because of the fret layout. So no "wrong" notes.

    If you look at the fingerboards on Jef's instruments, the frets are not evenly spaced. Some are intentionally left off the instrument. Those are the "wrong" notes.

    If you have never played a stringed instrument before, then yes a 3-string diatonic guitar is a great starting place. You'll want to tune it Key of D/DAD or Key of G/GDG or Key of A/AEA or like that. That's a way's down the road, the tuning does not really matter so long as the strings are tuned relative to each other. We'll walk you through it when you get there.

    You can search the Strumstick website and learn more about this kind of guitar. They have videos and tutorials.
    www.strumstick.com

    Jai said:
    Hi, ok I went to this website (http://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator ) and went to Dulcimer. I want to check a few things. I am buying a six string standard set of guitar strings from online. So I want to use two or three strings, how does this affect my sounds? Also, if i have a 25 inch fret scale, it means I must build my handle of the dulcimer such that from the nut to the 12th fret I have 12.5 inches? I am still wondering how the idea works. Like how is the dulcimer diatonic fretting different from the guitar. I still dunt understand the no "wrong" note idea with regards to fretting. If i added 6 strings and had this dulcimer fretting or if i had one string or two, how does it make a difference? Also, I am interested in this as i heard its much much easier to play diatonic fretting. I am wondering If i follow all the details, like for example have a 25 inch from nut to saddle, and have no frets. Wouldnt i be able to still play no " wrong" note? How does the fretting help at all in this process? Thank you and sorry for the ignorance, I am totally new to this.
  • Mungo Park September 8, 2010 at 10:43pm
    The first CBG I built had a 25ish length neck, with hind sight it was wayyy to long for the box, try thinking about something in the 19-22" scale, like maybe 21 which has been a good length and sound for me. Easier to reach, easier to hold better balanced, still sounds great. Just something to think about since it is a CBG not a strat, but hey, no rules so you might like the longer neck and I don't.
    Search for the diatonic scale some good threads on it. 3 strings is a good middle of the road place to start
    Should be a few answerers in this somewhere:
    http://www.cigarboxnation.com/main/search/search?q=diatonic+scale

    Cheers Ron.
  • Jai September 8, 2010 at 2:46am
    Hi, ok I went to this website (http://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator ) and went to Dulcimer. I want to check a few things. I am buying a six string standard set of guitar strings from online. So I want to use two or three strings, how does this affect my sounds? Also, if i have a 25 inch fret scale, it means I must build my handle of the dulcimer such that from the nut to the 12th fret I have 12.5 inches? I am still wondering how the idea works. Like how is the dulcimer diatonic fretting different from the guitar. I still dunt understand the no "wrong" note idea with regards to fretting. If i added 6 strings and had this dulcimer fretting or if i had one string or two, how does it make a difference? Also, I am interested in this as i heard its much much easier to play diatonic fretting. I am wondering If i follow all the details, like for example have a 25 inch from nut to saddle, and have no frets. Wouldnt i be able to still play no " wrong" note? How does the fretting help at all in this process? Thank you and sorry for the ignorance, I am totally new to this.
This reply was deleted.