Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by jabes on January 22, 2012 at 12:01pm

buy a set 3L + 3 R -like a SG

or 6 in line for all on one side like a strat

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Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on January 22, 2012 at 4:37am

Well if you want to use the other half of your set you could just invert your headstock design and therefore put them on the other side.

I have often seen the suggestion that putting the tuners on "backwards" causes the gear to slip. Unless you are using some ULTRA cheap tuners, I dont see this as likely. In truth I think the difference is that one way loads the gear and provides a little friction therefore reducing unintended movement, the "wrong" way is more likely to cause enough looseness to allow easier unintended movement. JMO

The other tips here are good and well advised to apply.

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Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on January 22, 2012 at 10:42am

Or do a slotted head with the tuners pointed down, like I do a lot of. See my pics. When u do this a righty tuner becomes a leftie and Vicky verco....

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Permalink Reply by Peter Taylor on January 22, 2012 at 2:25pm

Interesting subject, I was going to ask much the same question...but more on the line of " i see lots of winding on the guitars, some people go clockwise others anti so strings line up better with Nut. 

is there are wrong or right way to wind, will anti clockwise cause slippage??

I did figure out the backwards mounting problem.

Pete

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Permalink Reply by Hip Bone Bellaire on January 23, 2012 at 1:31am

Well to me it all seems to come down to winding the correct direction for the tuner... meaning after reading all the help full post why would it matter IF you mounted one upside down unless it's wound in the opposite way that it was meant to work... BUT that Might also mean the string will be pulled 1/4 away from where you might would like it to be....

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Permalink Reply by ChickenboneJohn on January 23, 2012 at 3:03am

I NEVER mount tuners  "the wrong way round", BUT I do often wind the strings the "wrong" way to achieve  a straighter string path, and don't have problems with tuning.  The most likely causes (in descending order of likelihood) are :

Incorrectly fitting the strings - just allow about 1 inch of string past the tuner post, thread that thru, keep some tension on the string while you wind it on, and ensure and that the string neatly coils down the post from top to bottom without crossing over itself.  2 or 3 full turns round the post is fine, and cut off the surplus with sidecutters, just leave 1/8-1/4 inch protruding thru the post.  Always give the strings a firm tug to stretch them after tuning to pitch, then re-tune.  And always, always, ALWAYS tune UP to the note. If you drop a note to pitch there's the risk that there may still be a bit of backlash in the gears waiting to be released, so if you are tuned too high, drop the note below and come back up to true pitch. Doing it like this will fix the problem in 90% of cases.

Strings binding in the nut slot - if you hear the string creaking or popping as you tune up, the slots's too tight - open it up and/or use a bit of pencil graphite to lubricate it .

Badly installed tuners  - use bushings if they are supplied - ensure the post holes are drilled at right angles to the headstock, make sure the holes are neither too large to result in slopiness nor too small to cause binding.  

Extreme string paths can also cause problems if they are deviating a great deal from a straight line from nut to string post..also extreme  break angles over the nut can cause excessive friction at the nut and cause the strings to ride up the post when tightened.

Really cheap tuners where there is a lot of play and backlash - some of the cheap stamped metal open-back ones I've seen on some guitars are pretty dreadfull. Having said this, even the cheapest of tuners should work OK providing they are properly installed and the strings are put on correctly.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Bliss on January 23, 2012 at 6:47am

I agree with every point John made here, all good.

A couple more thoughts and opinions, first, back to the orientation question.

The string load leverages the tuner shaft within the bushing, and is going to either push the pinion gear into the worm gear and minimize backlash, or turned around the other ("wrong") way pull the gears apart and increase backlash. It stands to reason that it would be worse with economy tuners with looser tolerances to start with.

Part of how a tuner works is not only the gear reduction advantage provided by the gear arrangement, but consider that while the worm gear easily turns the pinion, the pinion pressure does not apply much turning force to the worm by the very nature of the design. Basic mechanical engineering.

I prefer to minimize the lateral angle from the nut to the tuner shaft, as others have suggested, but thats mostly because I find it visually appealling and feel that it makes it easier for things to function smoothly at the nut.

As far as which way the string winds, the only major effect is which way the key turns to tighten the string. If its your only instrument and you arent used to any "standard", I guess it doesnt matter. It matters to me because I need to mentally be sure which way to turn should I need to tune on the fly. And having many instruments I definitly want them standardized. besides, for me the wrong way would just feel wierd.

Again, Johns advise is spot on, especially the last part where he says that even economy tuners will work acceptable for most, with proper design and installation. Precision tuners are nice, but a superflous luxury most of the time.

I too have never mounted any "backwards," so this is just my opinion and explanation for why I build them the way I do.

Hope that helps clear things up for someone,

Mark.

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Permalink Reply by Hip Bone Bellaire on January 23, 2012 at 7:49am

Man this is all Good Info... and consider I've built 7 and never even thought of this makes me feel a bit behind the times.. anyway Live and Learn...

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Permalink Reply by The Phrygian Kid on January 23, 2012 at 10:15am

yeah they work no matter which way you wind em on the post, but if you have a lot of guitars its sure nice if they all tune the same way, so thats my only problem with winding the string to the outside of the post rather than the inside, the crank then works backward and i got 20 years of playing habit to break when giving a string a little crank while playing.  I do understand that winding to the outside is necessary for a lot of guys who dont add wings onto their heads and do it all on the one skinny little plank tho, and yeah that does work just fine.

vintage gibson mandos have the tuners 'backward' bcos of the cramped space on the head, and sometimes they do jump a gear over time but by and large theyre fine.  I use real cheap tuners btw, gittys budget ones for my slotted heads and <$10 schaller / gotoh copies from ebay for my regular heads where the posts point up.  I think the potential for problems from having the gear on the wrong side of the post (ie 'lefty tuners' on the 'righty' side etc) will be much higher with sloppy drilling tho, so if you dont have a drill press and drill out your tuners by eye (which i often do cos of the funky angles on a lot of mine) then the need to put the gear beyond the post is much greater.  I have stripped the gears on two of gittys budget tuners (this is the little brass cog, not the worm gear) after using several hundred but i put it down to a faulty unit because i replace it with another and it works fine.

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