I've been searching through the articles on this site for information on selecting the position where the bridge should be. Obviously on an unfretted instrument you can move the bridge and experiment, but on a fretted guitar, once the frets are on and the neck is fixed that's it. You have committed yourself.

 

So is there any way to know on a box for box basis (not using formulas because I'm pretty sure that they are worthless unless you always use identical boxes) where the bridge should be to get the best results?

 

Now I've already done some test, but I don't know if they are the work of a visionary (don't laugh) or a pointless waste of time (odds on the latter). I was thinking that as far as the box is concerned it gets most of the string vibration through the bridge. If you want to simulate vibrations coming from the bridge can you use something else that will transmit vibrations and see (or rather hear) how they sound and make a choice based on that. I found a tuning fork and tried it at various places on three boxes that I intend to use soon.

The results from the three were quite different. Not surprisingly all gave the warmest and clearest sound in the centre of the box. The top one gave quite progressive results getting better quite gradually towards the centre. The left hand one was very even across it's width until right near the edge. The right hand one was a surprise as it sounded best right in the middle, tone falling off and getting soft of nasal even an inch away from the motif. Shame as I don't really want to put a bridge right on the motif but my tuning fork test suggests that it may be the best place.

 

So, finally, to the question. Has anyone done any tests - similar or otherwise - that give a good indication of where to put a bridge and that do not rely on ratios or formulas, but take into account the different characteristics of each box?

 

 

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Good observation John!

Try experimenting with "chirpys" (where you sort of graze the vibrating string with the pick after you pluck the string to create a harmonic chirp.) Once you get a feel for it try it closer to the bridge and up toward the neck for varied effect.

Thats but one way to use the effect of location. Its more pronounced as I said, on some instruments that are more sensitive. Especially electric/mag pickups of course.

Mark,  got ya on the processed thing, your ears are probably much better than mine at hearing that stuff when someone else does it.  I only do 3 string fretless, you should want one.  Good point on making a clean recording, I like the echo stuff myself.
Thanks Mark.

Chirpys. Great! But when would you use them? Do you have any examples of them being used on a track? I'm struggling to imagine the context in which to use them. Great idea though. I'm still trying (so far with little success) to master pinched harmonics.

John, re: harmonics, nodes etc - you're not deluding yourself, that's spot on.

Also explains why you can get a great variation in tone by picking/plucking the string at different points - if the spot where you pick coincides with an anti-node for a harmonic then that harmonic will be emphasised to some degree.

I've been looking at how position of pickups relative to harmonic nodes and anti-nodes might influence tone.

http://www.cigarboxnation.com/photo/guitar-pickup-placement-relativ...

 

Re chirpys: Listen to the very first note of the Beatles' "I Feel Fine." That is a very well documented example of one type of chirpy. Lennon was holding the edge of his pick against the vibrating amplified string.

 

Another type of chirpy is pinch harmonics, which John is trying to master. Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top is famous for using pinch harmonics, as are Buddy Guy and a host of other rock and bluesmen. There are a couple of relatively easy ways to do these. One is a "classical guitar" or "shredder" way, by using the thumb and forefinger and creating a micro-node between them. Use the fleshy aprt of the thumb to slightly mute the string, then gently pluck wihtthe fleshy part of teh forefinger. You can aslo use the edge of the thumbnail. Where you pluck the string is actually important to get a good sounding one. Too close to either the bridge or neck ain't the right place. Another way, is to grip down on a pick so far that the tip is almost buried in the flesh between the thumb and forefinger. You get a small, but distinct, 12-th tone or octave harmonic, that sounds really kewl when heavily amplified.

 

Mark. Thanks for the link to the pickup placement chart that you have. I'm sure I will return to that one.

Oily. Thanks for the example of a chirpy. That is very useful both in terms of when to use them and also what sound to be aiming for (at least approximately). I have known the pinched harmonics as squealies because of this excellent tutorial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I5O8P-r5Rk

He has a several videos on different aspects of harmonics. The trouble is that he makes it look so easy and I don't find it nearly as easy so I think I am must jealous. It sounds as if he is demonstrating much of what you are saying in the above message.

Thanks again for the information. All very useful and a great help to someone who doesn't have a guitar ridden past (as opposed to a guitar riding past - whatever that might be).

The pickup location issue is another thing altogether, I wasnt going to go there because the original question was more acoustic in nature, but it is similar enough...... Who started this thread? LOL!

 

The "Chirpy" examples and answers given are good enough, I will only add my own experience as related to the ZZ-Top example. In the 70's Tom Sholz of Boston created and produced the Rockman series of amps and effects that really seemed to augment harmonics heavily. Even the little sandwich sized IC practice amps would really pick up on that. About that time several major bands started using his stuff including ZZ Top, whose signature sound suddenly changed dramatically. I had/have one of those little practice amps and found guitar licks like "Rough Boy" (Full of mild to moderate "chirpys") to be suddenly easy to master on it. It just almost happened naturally. By the way, I was doing the "choked up pick" method described near the end of Oilyfools response above. Seemed like every song had them at the time! 

John, what sort of amp sound are you using when trying to play pinch harmonics? (ie. what amp settings - distorted or clean?) 

I notice that the bloke in the video is using quite hefty distortion. I suspect the compression inherent in that sort of distorted sound makes it easier to get harmonics of consistent volume. I guess it's possible the Rockman amps did this sort of thing too.

 

MB,

 

Yeah, I inherited one of those Rockman's from someone who didn't want to play anymore (???!!) about a year after the craze started. It was very easy to get pinch harmonics. Another thing I've found is that using the Reverend Willie G's trick of a Mexican peso (or a US 50-cent piece, or in my case, a Saudi 50 halalah coin) makes it even easier than using a standard flatpick. Plus you get the ringing from metal on metal. I also found that using a coin for a pick makes it much easier for me to duplicate the SRV pick scrape for the shuffle rhythm in "Pride and Joy." But then my hands get sweaty, and I tend to drop the damned things...Despite what Wikipedia, the online videos, and many guitar teachers say, it is possible to get an audible pinch harmonic squeal with a Clean setting. You just gotta play around with the amp settings, the tone and volume settings on your guitar, your pick, how much thumb and forefinger flesh contacts the string, and your finger position on the string. As with anything, it jsut takes practice. The hardest part is being able to throw them into a solo at a moment's notice for a dramatic effect. I'm still working on that bit. But I've been practicing them long enough that I can now get audible pinch harmonics on a steel stringed acoustic and a nylon stringed classical, too.

I didn't mean to suggest you can't get pinch harmonics with a clean amp sound or on an acoustic (obviously you can). But the challenge then is to get different harmonics to sound at around the same volume level and also at a level so they don't sound a lot quieter than regular fretted notes. I suppose that's where practice really comes into play. I obviously need an awful lot of that before I'll be able to use this as a regular playing technique.

If you used a compressor effect then it should, to an extent, ease things in the same way as distortion does while still giving a clean sounding tone.

 

I do think it's easy to get lulled into using distortion to make a guitar sound impressive. It can work up to a point but beyond that it can also be a bit tiresome. Personally I'm trying to use clean amp settings and acoustic playing as much as I can. I feel that's a good route to try to develop my general technique. However I think that for the time being I'll be concentrating on simpler stuff and leaving pinch harmonics to the flashier players.

OK. I have another pinched harmonic question, but am a bit reticent after Mark said that they are for the flashier players. I obviously can't put myself anywhere near that catagory, let alone in it. So to the question. If I fret or put the slide at one place on the string, hold one finger of the right (plucking) hand on a node and pluck behind it, is that a pinched harmonic or a harp harmonic? Whatever it is, I seem to be getting better at them.

On the subject of getting them to sound at the same volume as the other notes, in some contexts at least, the contrast is part of the appeal.

I didn't mean to suggest they weren't for you John - just that there are other easier techniques which I think I'll be working on for a while - I think your playing's probably better than you think.


Interesting to see you appreciate Tommny Emmanuel. I hadn't heard of him until a couple of weeks ago when a friend showed me some of his stuff on YouTube. He really is an astonishing player.


Roadkill a.k.a. John Maw said:

OK. I have another pinched harmonic question, but am a bit reticent after Mark said that they are for the flashier players.

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