About 5 guitars in and some higher-than-usual action on my builds, I'm trying to wrap my head completely around the idea of angled necks/heels. As near as I can tell, the idea of angling a neck pocket, or using a shim, seems to really come into play if you want to use a bridge that sits higher off the soundboard than the fretboard + frets (for example, a banjo). Then, while I looking at some of my cheap Strat/Tele copies, I realized none of them utilize an angled neck pocket. I had one of those DUH moments : if it's possible to design the neck/fretboard so that it sits far enough above the soundboard to match the height of the bridge, why do luthiers bother with angled necks? Am I completely missing some design flaw that an angled neck fixes, beyond matching for high bridges?

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That is a very useful guide for determining neck angle. 

On my Les Paul builds, I had a proper drawing of a a full size LP guitar from Stew-Mac.  The neck angle was

determined by a glue in tenon on the end of the neck and a pocket in the body called a mortise. 

 The mortise pocket was routered out to accomodate the neck/FB and tenon and

basically a neck offset of 4.5 to 5 degrees, based on the height of the T-0-M bridge and the string stop piece.

The neck angle is important to allow the guitar to be played at the lowest action possible without fret buzz

and at the same time accommodate the minimum height of the bridge which has an adjustable height.

The other point as other posters have mentioned is the string break angle between the stop tail piece

and the bridge saddle(s),  which also needs some angle in order to provide proper string tension.

Not enough string tension on the saddles and you might get buzzing or a dull lifeless string

tone. Too much and you might experience some string breakage.

Somewhere in between, you will get good intonation and sustain.

David Lloyd said:

Hi Scotty,

I recently found this on the www which tells you what neck angle you need for best string height http://www.tundraman.com/Guitars/NeckAngle/Index.cfm

I'd be interested in the views of others as to how useful they think this is.

Upto now I have relied upon a bit of luck/best guess and when that fails cut up credit cards as a shim - I am looking forward to the replies for a more professional approach.

Regards,

David

You really only need to angle the neck if you have a Gibson/Tunomatic style bridge because they stand about six feet off the surface of the guitar top.  If you use a Fender style plate bridge then you're safe to run the neck perfectly in line with the body.

 

Rather than coming up with a jig for the router pocket, another method is to angle the heel of the neck itself using a hand plane.

More like 15mm (0.6 inch), but yes, it is a tall bridge..even taller if it has a wooden base like on

 some of  the full body acoustic archtops (nearly an inch high). These have elevated FB as well as angled.

Josh Gayou (SmokehouseGuitars) said:

You really only need to angle the neck if you have a Gibson/Tunomatic style bridge because they stand about six feet off the surface of the guitar top.  If you use a Fender style plate bridge then you're safe to run the neck perfectly in line with the body.

 

Rather than coming up with a jig for the router pocket, another method is to angle the heel of the neck itself using a hand plane.

To Uncle John:

An angled headstock is an entirely different issue. The angles headstock ( or offset like a lot of fenders) would keep you from using string trees. The angles headstock keeps enuff string tension on nut to keep strings in the slot. The slotted headstock does this also .. the string runs at more of an angle to the tuners.

 

The angled neck is used to keep string height in control for using the gawdawful high bridges ( tremolos, whammy bar etc.) USUALLY, it is used to angle necks backwards .... but I'm more used to this on long scales ... ( 34" basses).

 

I see absolutely no reason for an angled necks on the average cbg build .... even more so for a neck thru.

 

 

Matt

try a body end scarf join ;)

 

the new square edge becomes the plane that the soundboard is on.  I always angle my necks, a big tall bridge is great..

make the bridge last of all, and shave it down to the action u like

Jef... that's GENIUS. Can you message me a higher-rez copy of the photo??


Jef Long said:

try a body end scarf join ;)

 

the new square edge becomes the plane that the soundboard is on.  I always angle my necks, a big tall bridge is great..

make the bridge last of all, and shave it down to the action u like

Nice job Jef, how much angle do have there? It looks like a lot more than I tried.

hey scotty, my pleasure.

that pic is hosted at the other forum, if you right click and 'open image in new tab/window' it should be scalable.

 

re: calculating neck angles..   its basic trigenometry folks.. tsk tsk.  if you have a calculator that does sin, cos, log..

u can work out the angle given a known scale length and bridge height, as these are two sides of a right angled triangle.

when i have time i'll make a diagram.

 

I dont calculate an angle, i rule a line on the neck (which would be inside the box/tin) then i bandsaw the line, flip the scrap bit from top to bottom and glue it in.  I know the angle is quite close enough and im making the bridge last of all to fit everything together..

If you look at that pic, you can see the cut i made on the bottom one.  The top one is glued with the scarf right up to the heel, so i sacrificed some length for depth; the middle one is opposite, i sacrificed some depth for length.  (that will eventually see the heel shaved right off for a neck thru solid/thinline kinda thing i think) I think guitars are dull without angles, especially when theyre made from a square box.  So angle ur necks guys, angle your heads, taper your necks..   you can do it.

 

If you look at some of my pics you'll see my bridges are usually about and inch or more tall, i believe this gives you a lot more volume.  Take a look at my entry in last years doubleneck challenge for some mind twisting angles. :)

That requires a critical cut, but makes great sense to me.  Thanks.


Scotty C. said:
Jef... that's GENIUS. Can you message me a higher-rez copy of the photo??


Jef Long said:

try a body end scarf join ;)

 

the new square edge becomes the plane that the soundboard is on.  I always angle my necks, a big tall bridge is great..

make the bridge last of all, and shave it down to the action u like



Jef Long said:

>re: calculating neck angles..   its basic trigenometry folks.. tsk tsk.  if you have a calculator that does sin, cos, log..

 

I  just see it as just an scalene triangle formed by the string height at the nut and the bridge,

the other side of the triangle  being the FB.

 

 

>I dont calculate an angle, i rule a line on the neck (which would be inside the box/tin) then i bandsaw the line, flip the scrap bit from top to bottom and glue it in.  I know the angle is quite close enough and im making the bridge last of all to fit everything together..

 

Makes sense. In my build, I made a banjo style bridge and ran a fishing line from the nut (mockup) to the bridge and tied the nylon string down at the end.  With a 1/4 inch mockup FB clamped onto the neck, I can determine the string height and the corresponding height of the bridge.

Shouldn't be  rocket science here, just some trial and hopefully without errors..

but if you want to  really get into triangle and angle theory, it could be.  LOL!

 

 

>If you look at some of my pics you'll see my bridges are usually about and inch or more tall, i believe this gives you a lot more volume.  Take a look at my entry in last years doubleneck challenge for some mind twisting angles. :)

 

A taller bridge may give you some more  acoustic volume (as in a violin or fiddle bass),

but it would seem to me that there is a comprimise at some point as a tall thin bridge

 will exert more pressure from the strings..and that would require some careful re-inforcing

ribs (or archtop) under the CB top to relieve the string pressure. otherwise you might

 start to see some concaving of the top.

 

 

 

 



Uncle John said:
That requires a critical cut, but makes great sense to me.  Thanks.
* no more critical than many others mate.. fret slots anyone ? :D long as your table on the bandsaw is nice and square and u got a steady hand, ur golden.   The bandsaw leaves it pretty roungh as you know, so theres sanding anyway.  The two edges you bring together are the original square edges, so they meet up nice, its the new top and bottom that need a quick belt sanding or whatever..
u can do it mate
carverman said:

I  just see it as just an scalene triangle formed by the string height at the nut and the bridge,

the other side of the triangle  being the FB.

 

 

*that triangle is certainly there too, sure.. but the angle between fingerboard and string is minimal and pretty much consistent anyway, just enough to defeat buzzing on the frets right?  consider the bottom side not as fingerboard, but as the 'zero position' of the plane of the fingerboard..

 

>I dont calculate an angle, i rule a line on the neck (which would be inside the box/tin) then i bandsaw the line, flip the scrap bit from top to bottom and glue it in.  I know the angle is quite close enough and im making the bridge last of all to fit everything together..

 

Makes sense. In my build, I made a banjo style bridge and ran a fishing line from the nut (mockup) to the bridge and tied the nylon string down at the end.  With a 1/4 inch mockup FB clamped onto the neck, I can determine the string height and the corresponding height of the bridge.

Shouldn't be  rocket science here, just some trial and hopefully without errors..

but if you want to  really get into triangle and angle theory, it could be.  LOL!

 

* yeah man, i just wing it.  I dont even mock up, I know its going to work and ive done dozens like this.  I did do the trig on my doubleneck tho, if you've seen it you'll understand, the bridges are stacked and cross over one another and the upper one can be fretted all the way to the last fret without fouling the strings on the lower neck.

 

>If you look at some of my pics you'll see my bridges are usually about and inch or more tall, i believe this gives you a lot more volume.  Take a look at my entry in last years doubleneck challenge for some mind twisting angles. :)

 

A taller bridge may give you some more  acoustic volume (as in a violin or fiddle bass),

but it would seem to me that there is a comprimise at some point as a tall thin bridge

 will exert more pressure from the strings..and that would require some careful re-inforcing

ribs (or archtop) under the CB top to relieve the string pressure. otherwise you might

 start to see some concaving of the top.

 

* i do agree, but i think its this exact 'pressure' in soundboard that generates volume and tone ? :D  my job is to maximise this pressure without cracking it as you say.   Brace on up if it helps you sleep mate, whatever..  I am speaking from my own experience and observations, Im not one of these guys who jumps on up and answers every question based only on hypothesis.  :D keep me posted.  Ive personally cracked a couple of cigar box lids and my tin lids do frequently buckle a little, but the sides on the tin braced against the thru neck keep the tin from collapsing.  I personally aim for as much of this 'pressure on the soundboard' that i can get!
What do you need to sand it for Jef, the part you cut is hidden in the box, unless the inside of your guitar is as nice as the outside, mine aren't.

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