Hi folks!!

Well, my name is Sachi. I've been lurking for a couple of weeks but in the last couple of days i have started posting a little bit.

So, i wrote a book of a post. Please feel free to skip down to the 4 questions if you don wanna read alla bout who i am. lol. I wrote a lot, and i hope i dont overwhelm anyone. I really am excited to ask my questions and get to know you guys.

A small bit about me. I'm a 32 year old young woman who is disabled, so i spend a lot of time with very little to do. I usually spend my time being creative in some way. I'm a writer, thats my heart and my passion. But, also I make recycled sweater coats outa old sweaters that are AMAZING, i make fine beaded jewelry, i paint, crochet, knit, train dogs, nursemade sick puppies in my families kennel (royalfrenchel.com is our dog website if any of you wanna see the cutest puppies in the world. Our bull hybrids are the smallest bulldogs in the world, and are specially bred for health, long life, companionship and service work. My mother designed the breed for me when i became very ill n needed a smaller sized service dog.) I Survive month to month on disability, which means i have pretty much no money for buying things like ukulele's. 700 per month really doesn't last very far, so i have to figure out other ways to get the things that i want. So i make a lot of it, whatever i can, i make. and being creative helps me general well being :-)

Anyhoot, i do a lot of creative stuff to keep my mind busy between doctors visits and hospital stays. Recently, i wanted to learn to play the ukulele I love the sound of a tenor uke, but they are expensive, and being ME, i like making things and i figured i would try and make one! But despite the fact i love working and crafting with wood, i thought that a traditional ukulele might be a little to hard for me on my first go round. So i ended up looking to CB Ukulele's! Once i got bit by the bug, i became facinated with ALL CB Instruments. I have a friend who does comedic characters on youtube, and she has one character named Roy E. Willderness who sings and plays guitar and i just thought a CBG was perfect for him. Then i have a 10 year old little friend who plays violin but has undergone tons of surgery on her face and jaw, and i thought i could manufacture something more comfortable for her chin rest on a cigar box violin. ANd i still wanna make a tenor or baritone ukulele! 

So... i ordered 4 boxes on ebay and am awaiting their arival with baited breath! I also found some 7/8 inch thick, 4 inch wide and 36 inch long paduk at woodcraft.com on sale for 10 bucks each, and i thought that would be perfect for the necks. Considering all of the wood i sorced on ebay and other places was like 40 bucks plus at least 25 for shipping and handling. The neck looked like it was gonna cost an arm and a leg, and i dont get out locally that often to go to a wood store. Plus i love the way Paduk looks, deep rich red, really lovely.

So, now that i have introduced myself, here are my questions. I'm a writer, everything i do ends up being book-sized lol

1. Okay, my question is about fretting the neck. When fretting, do i REQUIRE a finger board? Or can i fret the neck directly and not use two seperate peices (IE, neck an fingerboard) I would rather fret the neck directly, paduk is so beautiful and if there isnt a need or benefit to the fingerboard that i need to consider i am thinking maybe just forego the fingerboard all together. I also like the look of it a bit better then a bulky fingerboard. Being that i do NOT play yet, and am ignorant, if there is some reason why a fingerboard is important i'd love to understand what it is 

2. The neck, i have a lot of neck questions, lol. I have read some of the threads about neck attachment but i wanted to ask anyway. Doesn't a THRU-body neck impede sound? It seems to me like it would lessen vibration and reverb and  the neck through the body CLEARLY takes up the empty space it seems to me that would ultimately create a weaker, duller sounding acoustic tone. Am i wrong? I have thought about GLUING The neck in place using some sorta Joint that slips the side of the box into a groove in the neck for a really tight fit. But i read somewhere that with Gluing you cant take it apart to fix any problems if needed. And third option was SCREWING the neck to the side of the box. But some people have complained that causes a BUZZING sound. I want all my instruments to be proficiant as acoustic and electric - with that in mind what do you guys suggest? I also thought about doing a Screwing/gluing combination. For a really tight, no buzzing fit. Any input for me about this subject, while taking into account I do NOT yet know how to play, and understanding i want a very sturdy functional instrument when through would be greatly appreciated.

3. I am thinking about how i might THIN the side of the box i'm gonna use for a soundboard to make its acoustic sound louder and brighter. I saw some one suggest doing this with a router tool. Are there any other suggestions? I thought maybe i could use a plane and slowly shave it down then sand it smooth. I do realize i'll have to be adding braces if i thin it a lot. Do you guys think that its worth the time energy and work to thin the sound board? I've even seen some people take the bottom of their box off all together and replace it with a thin sound board like spruce or koa - would you guys suggest doing something like that or do you think it defeafts the purpose of using a CB? lol I'm open to trying all kindsa things, i just want my end product to have a rich sound. I wanna make the best possible use of my cigar boxes to produce the best possible sound!! So any info, suggestions, tips, tricks etc that you may have will be GREATLY welcomed and appreciated!

4. I am certain i wanna make my guitar with at least 4 strings - but honestly, i'd like to make it a 6 string. Can you guys tell me if and why this would be more difficult then a 4 string model? I would like to have a full set of strings on the guitar, but found that not many people do 6 strings with cigar boxes and i wondered why that was. Is it size of box and limited space? Does it not sound as good with 6 strings as it does with 4? I am planning on giving my first guitar away as a gift to a friend, and i want her to be able to play it like she does her cheapo acoustic - and i want it to sound BETTER then her cheapo acoustic. I dunno if thats gonna be possible, but i'm sure as hell gonna try the best that i can!! Any info on number of strings would be greatly appreciated.

OKay, i think this is enough questions for my first intro to all of you. lol. Sorry for writing you a BOOK. I look forward to soaking up all of your knowledge and expertise!

Be well and Blessings of music to all,

Sachi

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1.  Fret or fretboard... up to you... I've done both...

2.  There is a lot of debate on this.  A through neck is mostly necessary to keep the box from imploding from the string tension... also, some report good volume with the through neck fully glued to the top others recess the neck so it only hits the two edges, leaving 1/8"-ish of a gap under all but 1/4" of the lid on each side..

3.  Most Cigar boxes are some form of plywood, from what I've bought.  Others are some soft wood... I'm not sure it's necessary... if you want to do that, why not make your own boxes... even pressboard lids sound good...

4. It takes 3 strings to make a chord.  A 6 string will require some work to keep the neck from bowing (truss rod?) or the box from collapsing.  each string has 25-30lbs of tension on it... 3*25=75lbs... 6*25=150...  Take a look at some of the videos here... I think you'll be impressed with the sound of some of the great CBG's people make here...

BTW: I'm sure one of the more advanced builders will chime in... I've only made 14... and a Uke...

I just finished my first and and had some similar thoughts and question... I'll share what I learned and some opinions I developed.

1. Re: fretting on a separate finger board, I've seen both, pretty much up to you.

2. A through neck doesn't gave to impede sound, but it is needed for strength, especially if you're considering 6 strings. That is, unless you go about building your own body that is strong enough to deal with the string tension. You can take a look at what I did to keep the neck off the top and the back, and to keep it from interfering with sound inside the box. Now this isn't necessary, a lot of folks seems to do fine with a lot less work.



3. If you're using a cigar box, you could thin the top with a plane, but it would be very difficult, because the edges still need to be thick to give the top strength where it meets the sides and ends. Remember, there is string tension from the strings on the bridge pushing into the top.

4. The number of strings has to do with the string tension as previously mentioned--that and the simple, raw nature of CBGs in general. If you want to do the 6 strings, I think you'd want to start with a neck 3"x2" and shape to fit your hand. That 7/8" neck you have won't be up to the task.

Look through the pages of photos for ideas--there are a lot of good ones.

Brad

A couple of little points to add:

1. You can just fret the neck wood, but adding a separate fretboard will add a lot of strength - if you are using steel strings I would definitely recommend adding a fretboard. I have had oak necks bow without...

2. All 3 of your neck attachment ideas would be fine. As John and Brad have mentioned, a through neck adds stability. Although you will find a lot of people swear by attaching the neck using a dovetail or similar where the neck meets the box.

3. Yes you could use a tonewood for the lid, I do this all the time (have a look at my pics). I would recommend just using a cigar box at first - the quality of the sound is still surprisingly good, even on the paper covered ones.

4. Start with a 3 stringer - honestly you won't regret it! I play may 3 stringers more than my 4 string CBGs, my 5 string banjo, and my 6 string guitars. Lots of fun.

Welcome to the Nation!

PS. My wife is also a crochet/craft fiend, although I haven't quite managed to get her to pick up tools and make a CBG :) - here's her shop: https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/RhubarbTabard?ref=ss_profile

I would suggest looking at the design for a crow 3 stringed guitar. He puts the neck right on top of the box. I have done this successfully a number of times. I like the sound of mine and if played with a pick it is still loud enough even acoustic. I have a photo of a 3 stringed baritone uke I made fretless. The added bonus is that with nylon strings you can either fret or go fretless and chords are still easy to make.  http://jerusalemmules.bandcamp.com/album/o-death here is a link to a free 7 song download All of these songs are played on a 3 stringed uke I made that is in my pictures section. This way you can hear what it sounds like before you decide. I suggest this because crows build is readily do able for a new builder. You will enjoy making it and playing it and from there you can get more advanced easily and use the knowlege you picked up from your first build. It can also be made really fast as far as cbgs go. Just an idea, good luck with building and playing. It is really rewarding and a great way to express yourself......matt 

Hi Sachi! ....phew.....here goes.... ;-)

Question 1. I use three quarter by inch and a half Red Oak blanks for necks with a 25.5" scale length for 3 and 4 string cigar box guitars, on its own It would probably bend slightly with four strings, also the neck would be too thin for me to use, so.....I glue on a 7mm fretboard made from many different hardwoods including maple, walnut, afromosia, anything I can get that looks good, fretting is a tricky job that takes practice, but I use a fretboard on fretless necks to reinforce the neck and give it a good playing thickness.

2. I always glue the neck to the box as it gives the whole structure rigidity.
I use a thru neck for 3 and 4 string designs as I believe it improves clarity, tone and sustain.

3. I believe there is a lot of snake oil mystique about soundboards - I have used many different types and sizes of boxes and always found most of them don't really need thinning, just use them with the paper on, not much affects them even paint or pick guards. There are separate acoustic and electric designs, the acoustics usually have a little space under the box lid but I lay the lid flat to the neck for electrics, they sound pretty good acoustically but not as loud as a purpose built acoustic, if you really want loud get a reso cone, but a lot depends on where you place the bridge.

4. Six strings are a completely different animal to a four string, I would advise beginning with a four string, six strings are technically much more difficult to get right and need a very sturdy neck to take the string tension. Cigar box guitars aren't meant to sound "good" as a traditionally made acoustic guitar, they're meant to sound dirty and Bluesey!
I prefer to play 4 stringed guitars, I use the middle 4 strings from an electric guitar and tune them GDGb, this gives me a lot of scope for my songs and style of playing, also remember if you ask ten CBG guys a question you will get ten different answers on everything, we are not dealing with mass produced instruments here so building for a friend opens a hundred questions!

God luck in your build, enjoy the journey! :-)

Wow!!

Thank you guys all so much!! Boy did i get what i asked for! Wonderful insights, thoughts and opinions i will be mulling over as i make my first foray into CBG making! 

I should clarify - I know without a doubt that i will get evryones personal experiences, opinions and thoughts and that they will likely all be different! Thats one of the things that drew me to making CB Instruments, the fact that there are so many ways to do it, and its so accessable a hobby even for those who have little to know experience as luthiers!!

I think i will take your advice and start with 4 strings. I also think that i will go ahead and fret them - for a couple of reasons based off of your wonderful responses as well as my info-gathering done while i lurked on your board. 

BTW, i love that you guys are so newbie friendly. Made it really easy for me to want to join the discussion. So thank you.

I'll tell you about my friend - she's an actress who has started a YOuTube project where she plays the host of a show geared towards introducing new artists "On the precipice of stardome!" in other words - nobodies!! lol. The host of the show is Syd Cecil, who is this real awkward, strange, uncomfortable type of comedy, where its funny as hell but he's being serious and very uncomfortably awkward.

She also plays the artists. And ONE Of her artist characters is "Roy E. Wilderness" Who deffinately has a backwoods appearance, blonde hair real big red beard, and sings a sorta bluesy folksy kinda music. All of this stuff, songs, lyrics, skits (I help with the skits sometimes.) are written and created by my friend Rachel. She also has a Hyper Religious ignorant country-western lesbian singer character called "Opal Marinade" And Opal's lover does more of a rapping kinda music, and it is just hilarious to see all her characters and songs and skits come to life. I really think that Roy E. Wilderness would absolutely KILL on the CBG - so thats why i'm wanting to make her one. Does that information help explain what i'm trying to create for my friend Rachel? I guess i was worried she may have a hard time modifying her songs for only 4 strings and i thought making a 6 stringer would be about the same level of ease. I can see i was wrong about that. 

So when i DO Attempt a 6 string, I'll get a neck blank at least 2 inches thick and use a super sturdy wood plus a fretboard and a strong box and hopefully that will be more successful - and i'll try that after i complete a successful 4 string CBG and CBU.

Your information is seriously helpful, now i understand what limits me is strength with the 6 string and i feel more confidant for the future now that i have that filed away.

Now, do you guys think Padauk is a good wood to use for my necks? Padauk is a tightly grained african hardwood in tones of red and maroon almost. Its very strong, and takes a nice finish. The size i can get from woodcraft on sale right now for 10 bucks each is - Its about an inch thick by 3 inches wide and comes in 36 inch long boards. 10 bucks is a SERIOUSLY good deal on this particular wood. I mean a REALLY good deal. 

I also thought about using Ambrosia Maple for the fretboards, though I am not sure if that is a good choice. I think it looks amazing, but perhaps isnt a strong enough wood? Anyone have any input on that? Ambrosia maple is just maple that had been invaded by ambrosia beetles which creates massive discoloration in really neat looking ways. But they don't distinguish whether its hardwood or soft maple cause any maple can be ambrosia infested. It also can have small boreholes. I'm not sure if that would screw up the sound or negatively impact the soundboard in some way.

What i think i'm gonna TRY doing is doing a thru neck glued to the back of the box an perhaps shaved a bit thinner INSIDE the box to increase empty space inside the box - That way i sorta split the difference. I get the extra strength and don't give up the empty space. hrm. ...

Thanks so much you guys. I really appreciate hearing all of your different experiences and opinions. Its very helpful, and i love how wide the range of techniques everyone has. I think its pretty phenominal.

Hey, do you guys still brace the soundboard for 3 an 4 strings? And would Bracing help make the box strong enough for 6 strings? Lemme know whatcha think :)

Sachi

Hi Sachi I'm a new comer too and this is my first post.OK I was pretty much like you on my 1st CBG.Thousands of questions in my head and spending hours on you tube watching what other people do and just getting even more confused and worried mine would be a flop.So true to my style I gritted my teeth and used whatever I had available.So I found an old plywood packing case that was made from 3\8 and 3\16 thick board.l CBA waiting for a box to come Via e bay so made a box. 3\8 for sides and 3\16 for top and bottom.I cut an old red wood window frame for the neck.less than a week later I was playing and really sounds great, loud too with great tone. A few tips,yeagh you need clearance neck to soundboard,just cut back part of neck inside box.I found bridge and but material very important to sustain and ended up using brass rod for both.Many folk use brass threaded bolts . The position of bridge is important.Mine is about 2 ins from bottom of box and resonates real good.Any ways there are no rules in CBG making so do what you do best, be creative and enjoy.All the best luck, go on get started

Hey Sachi,

When you attempt a 6 string, maybe it would be better to use a router to carve a channel for a truss rod and use a thinner neck. If you used a 2" thick neck, with a fretboard, and the width required for 6 strings... I mean I have big hands but that wouldn't be playable, except for playing slide on your lap.

I think the padauk would be perfect for a neck, although 3 inches wide is pretty extreme. I use 35mm (1 3/8") for 3 stringers and roughly 37mm (nearly 1 1/2") for 4 strings.

I don't know much about ambrosia maple, but maple is generally a good strong wood to use for instruments. Check out the wood database http://www.wood-database.com/ (I spend hours on here :) )

This is the neck design I have settled on - if you have any questions let me know.

As you can see the neck runs through the box, but there's no need to take any material off to accommodate the lid etc. When you start taking material off the neck it weakens it.

If you're using a cigar box (plywood) there's no need to brace for 3 or 4 strings, if you're using solid wood, yes you do.

This is the internal bracing I used for a sapele soundboard recently. I wouldn't use a bridge block for a 3 stringer but this was for 4 strings.

Rick

Ok, Sachi, lets look at your list..

1. Do what you want, but if you're building on a 1x2 neck blank, I'd recommend adding a fretboard and it actually simplifies other construction issues.

2. Neck thru simplifies construction, increases sustain, and does not appreciably decrease volume.  A CBG is never going to be a volume horse.  The surface is just too small.

3. Thin or thinner sides  is not the main issue, sides need to be strong so you don't get them muffling the top.  Sure you can replace the top, but that question makes me wonder if you are trying to make a CBG sound just like a regular guitar?

4. One of the point of building CBGs are that they are "different". The openness of the sound of fewer strings engages the listener in a special way.  It's a sound well suited for roots music, heritage sounds and just standing out.  I've built 6string electric that sounded like, well 6string electrics.  Never bothered to build a 6string acoustic because the volume alone wouldn't cut it.  Electric/acoustics with piezos are a special case.

Why are you building a CBG?  Unless you're a talented luthier, I'd encourage you to start simple and don't expect to only build just one.  That's part of the fun.  A neck thru, fretted, four string is a pretty good sized challenge for a first time builder.

A CBG can sound as good as a"regular guitar", but will always sound different.  If that's ok will you, build on! Welcome, good luck and ask for help!

Hey Folks,

Sorry about ditching out the last couple days. Had another "episode" which ended with me throwing up blood all night and i'm just now begining to recover. :grimaces: I have these things called "Abdominal Migrains" which basically SUCKS - and is Super rare. I'm 32, suffered with this since i was like 3 years old, and only got diagnosed last week because its so rare a condition.  I get so sick, my nutritional status goes down, i get an infection because i'm so weak,, and then i end up in a COMA (two comas in the last 6 years, relearned to walk BOTH times. And they only JUST diagnosed the abdominal migraines as an underlying cause.) Anyhow, unlike how it is for most people who get sick, and then feel better. I get sick, again and again and again every 2-6 minutes regardless of what is in my belly, and it just doesn't end for hours. It actually cuts up my esophogus, which is why i end up bloody. I REALLY look forward to figuring out how to stop the episodes once they start. :facepalms:

Anyhoot, back to the CBG stuff. I totally want the gritty sound of the cigar box. I do love the idea of making my own box one day using like super stunning wood and the same shape of the CBG but thats it in the future. Right now, i'm all about doing what i can with fantastic cigar boxes. I spend a lot of time sick, so i want a fun project i can focus on when i'm able.  I just got 3 of my 4 boxes, and the 4rth box was accidentally the wrong one. I'm really excited about starting.

Also the Padauk i got is 4 inches wide, i figured i could cut it in half to be 2 inches wide and get extra neck blanks out of them. Whatcha think? It might be too much of a pain in the ass, i dunno. 

At any rate, the box designs you guys have shown me are great. I'm deffinately gonna do the thru-neck at least for my first couple so i get the strength. I'm gonna play around with thinning one of my boxes because the wood is REALLY thick now that i see it, its almost half an inch thick, so i will probably "play" with trying to thin it to see if i can get better sound. Cause it seems to me understanding ressonance that wood so thick wouldn't resonate very well. SO that one i probably will play with or just replace the sound board all together to be more successful sound-wise but keeping the fun gritty appearance of a cigar-box by leaving the stickers and labels on the back part maybe.

I'm really excited about making instruments in general. I've wanted to get into it for a very long time and  think CBG's are a great way to learn, tinker, and see if i wanna get more seriously into things like woodbending later. But right now, i'm VERY happy with the earthy rustic tones of CB instruments. I think its got a uniquely americana history and i am excited about seeing how my first builds come out. Hopefully i wont mess up the fretboard lol. 

I'm a great singer, but have never learned how to play any instruments or even read music. Though i'm surounded by talented muscians and artists in my family and extended family. So i'm really excited to get to learn, build and learn some more, and enjoy the sweetness of this hobby. I'm really very excited. Very happy. 

Hey, I do have another question for you guys!!

What boxes do you guys find have the BEST sound when made into instruments? Any type of boxes you think are a cut above the rest? I know some are made of spanish cedar and some of plywood. But the cedar is spost to sound better. When i talk about good sound, i'm not talking about it sounding like a classical guitar, just a really nifty unique gritty sound you LIKE alot. Any boxes in particular you think work best aucousticly or electricly? I'm just curious. 

I dont expect a CB to sound like every guitar, i dont even want them too. But some woods, some shapes, some sizes etc sound BETTER overall. thats just what i mean :-)

okay, oh and sorry for my little bit of an overshare at the begining of this post. I think its just such a big deal since i only got diagnosed last week after YEARS of trying to figure it out. I'm sure its not all thiats up, but boy am i glad at least this part is figured out..

Thanks for your guys help. I really love how friendly and kind this forum is. Its really the type of forum that makes you want to chime in, join in, share your triumphs and your misteps :) Its pretty awesome.

Blessings!

Sachi

Sorry to  hear about your episode Sachi - it sounds horrific. Here's hoping there's something that can be done now you've got the diagnosis. It would probably be sensible to wear a respirator/dust mask while you're working with wood, especially ones like padauk, which can cause respiratory inflammation - probably a bad combination with a sore throat!

To answer your question, yes, you could get 2 blanks out of each piece. Do you know anyone with a table saw?

Also, you will find that most if not all cigar boxes are made from cedar because of its ability to retain humidity and resist pests - two things which can ruin cigars. Be it solid (in rare cases) or ply, they're mostly cedar. As a rule of thumb, a thinner box lid sounds better, but they can always surprise you. I love the tone of Montecristo tubos boxes (paper covered) which are 6mm thick :) Half an inch thick does seem excessive though...

Anyways, I think one thing everyone who has replied to your questions can agree on is that you shouldn't overthink your first build. Just get stuck in and enjoy it. You will have thought of dozens of improvements to integrate into your second by the time you're halfway though. I wasn't satisfied with any of my instruments up to my 9th... and there's still always something I wish I'd done differently!

Rick

Thanks for your kind words of compassion. its been rough being so sick. This month alone i've been rushed to the hospital 3 times by ambulance, and almost went again two nights ago, it gets tiresome, to be sure.

I think we have a table saw. we have a lot of good tools, but i dont work with them much so my brother is gonna be the one doing some of that with me.

I wish i could get out to get some just plain old poplar so i could actually START on a neck and rest of the instrument already. BUt right now, i think i'm gonna have to just wait for the padauk to arive. And some wood glue which i'm sure we have but i would rather be safe then sorry.

I am also oldering a set of tenor ukulele fixings. Tuning pins, bridge, bone, nut - That will work for a CBG too, wont it? I mean, i figure if you can use BOLTS and nails, it seems to be a ukulele bridge may be acceptable.

Given that the cigar box instruments might run to having smaller necks i thought perhaps the EQ for a tenor ukulele for 4 strings would be a good choice. I can get the entire set of rosewood bridge, bone nut etc and tuning pegs for like 10 bucks but it will take forever to get here since its from china, and that means quality may suffer too - although the price is certainly low enough.

So what do you think? Bone, nut, bridge and tuning pegs for a ukulele good for the guitar builds as well?

Thanks alot. I cant wait to see what else you're all doing, and i promise to send pics of my first build. Hopefully i'll find a good neck blank in the shop so i can at least begin on my first instruments.

Sachi

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\uastyle>\ud/** Scrollup **/\ud.scrollup {\ud background: url("https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/963882636?profile=original") no-repeat scroll 0 0 transparent;\ud bottom: 25px;\ud display: inline !important;\ud height: 40px;\ud opacity: 0.3 !important;\ud position: fixed;\ud right: 30px;\ud text-indent: -9999px;\ud width: 40px;\ud z-index: 999;\ud}\ud.scrollup:hover {\ud opacity:0.99!important;\ud}\ud \uascript type="text/javascript">\ud x$(document).ready(function(){\ud x$(window).scroll(function(){\ud if (x$(this).scrollTop() > 100) {\ud x$('.scrollup').fadeIn();\ud } else {\ud x$('.scrollup').fadeOut();\ud }\ud });\ud x$('.scrollup').click(function(){\ud x$("html, body").animate({ scrollTop: 0 }, 600);\ud return false;\ud });\ud });\ud \ua!-- End Scroll Up -->