Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Cause the Blue rat on September 19, 2016 at 12:06pm

Yes Microtonal. Iv'e heard some very interesting music done in nothing but microtones. 

Here's something I just found on youtube that might interest you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRsSjh5TTqI

Possibly some fretting ideas for ya. I'd say go for it. This would be to cool to pass up.  

Here's a link I found a wile back. It's a bit scattered in information. But may give you ideas on where to look for farther information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R29am7Lmkc

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Permalink Reply by Fomhorach on September 19, 2016 at 12:26pm

What if the 'stinker' is just slightly a stinker but it becomes what a 'stinky' is.

Like.. It's only CBG builders that can build a 'stinky' because we know you move the fith back 10% and the 7th forwards 5%

That is what a 'stinky' is.

Blue rat gets it. A deliberate microtonal change that defines a 'stinky'.
You can't get a stinky from a shop, you got to get one built for you.

Stinky blues.

Deliberate and reproducable.

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Permalink Reply by Fomhorach on September 19, 2016 at 12:50pm

Oh and erasmo, why did you post that in the bane's photo of his brothers guitar?
That was a helava wierd thing to do.

I'm talking about how to microtune a CBG by shifting the tuning of the fretboard into something that only a hand made instrument can achieve to produce a 'sound' that no other commercial guitar can make.

Something that is reproducable because we hand craft these things.

How can we go about creating something like this, any ideas?

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Permalink Reply by The Bane on September 19, 2016 at 2:01pm

Think I get it now, after reading this thread, it was probably because a few of my frets are a bit off - but still plays okay.

Don't know if this is fitting for this conversation, but what about combining diatonic and chromatic on different strings? It would give a 'sound' that no other guitar has, be unique to the builder, and could be reproduced? Not sure how it would effect chords though.

For example, low string chromatic throughout, middle chromatic at the top and diatonic at the bottom, and the high string inverse of that?

Don't know if that's what is being sought, just trying to brainstorm a bit and help out.

Best,
The Bane

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Permalink Reply by Fomhorach on September 19, 2016 at 1:32pm

"Honky-tonks were rough establishments, providing country music in the Deep South and Southwest and serving alcoholic beverages to a working-class clientele. Some honky-tonks offered dancing to music played by pianists or small bands, and some were centers of prostitution. Katrina Hazzard-Gordon wrote that the honky-tonk was "the first urban manifestation of the jook", and that "the name itself became synonymous with a style of music. Related to the classic blues in tonal structure, honky-tonk has a tempo that is slightly stepped up. It is rhythmically suited for many African-American dance." - Wikipedia

"The first music genre to be commonly known as honky-tonk was a style of piano playing related to ragtime but emphasizing rhythm more than melody or harmony; the style evolved in response to an environment in which pianos were often poorly cared for, tending to be out of tune and having some nonfunctioning keys. " - Wikipedia

What I'm suggesting is a particular way of building a CBG intentionally wrong to remake or create an instrument that can be utilised by musicians.
Can we create a CBG honky tonk that is intentionally wrong in a certain way?

That would really mess with the whole music industry and place the art of luthery back into the hands of the instrument makers.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" - Gene Wilder. Charlie and the chocolate factory.

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Permalink Reply by turtlehead on September 19, 2016 at 2:30pm

How about something like prepared piano where objects are placed in the strings to alter the sounds.

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Permalink Reply by Cause the Blue rat on September 19, 2016 at 4:19pm

That's AWESOME! Totally cool vid.

I've heard, but have not done research on this, so take it with a grain of salt. The 'honk' sound was created by placing chains inside the upright pianos. 

By doing just a little research they also used leather, wood or a steal bar with brash tacks imbedded. The piano string would strike the tack as it vibrated. There may be other ways to get that sound as well. Some of these rigs were hung on levers. They could be raised or lowered as needed. ( Yes I did a search wile typing this entry. I'm crazy that way.... : )

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Permalink Reply by Fomhorach on September 19, 2016 at 9:30pm

Wow. Hahaha that's fantastically strange. I like your thinking turtlehead.
But I think the idea works best on a many stringed instrument.

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Permalink Reply by the anonymous pick on September 19, 2016 at 3:53pm

i forget who it was but someone on here made  "X"frets  . frets  cut  in an x pattern  XX X  X  X   X  etc,,

 but it worked  cause  it was a one stringer and the string  hit  the correct  spot  in the center  of the X .

could make for some cool  bends   too  i  imagine  . 

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Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 19, 2016 at 4:14pm

Y'all are gonna hate me for saying this, but...

There's an easier, and much harder, way to do this.

Consider:

1)If you go to all the trouble to create microtonal frets and whatnot, the musician who can take advantage of this will, if he or she is used to standard tunings and fingerings, have to completely change his playing style / fingering. There are many musicians who can do this, no doubt.

2)I happen to own two ouds, one Turkish, in a Turkish tuning, and an Iraqi one, in one of the many Middle Eastern variant tunings. I am still, slowly, trying to wrap my head and fingers around them. Oh, by the bye, they are both fretless, and "infinitely" microtonal. As it happens, I also a few years ago purchased an antique cedar box fretless 3-stringer from Shane Speal. It, too is fretless, but while it was sold as a slider, the action is such on it that it can be played...microtonally. Just like my ouds.

3)So what you really need is a mental system of mapping tones to your tuning, and a map of where to put your fingers, without the visual reference of frets. That's the hard part of this way.

4) The easy part, for the builder, is...no frets. Just get tha action right.

;-E

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Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 20, 2016 at 4:22pm

Yes, you have...you probably just don't realize it, though.

Go listen to The Rolling Stones' "Paint It Black." That Middle Eastern-sounding intro riff, that shows up as a repeated figure throughout the song, is Keef playing a slightly out-of-tune 12-string. He's getting that honky tonk jangle, due to the sympathetic ringing of out-of-tune strings. Apparently, he picked up a 12-string that was lying in the corner of the studio when they were developing the track, to get something that sounded a bit oud-like, with double string courses, realized it was out of tune, and decided to play it anyway.

And rock history was made.

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Permalink Reply by Timothy Hunter on September 20, 2016 at 8:04pm

sorry to debunk an urban myth but according to the web site i read to check it is Brian Jones playing a sitar not an out of tune 12 string..

http://inktank.fi/7-super-song-facts-about-paint-it-black-by-the-ro...

photo between points 3 and 4 show him playing the sitar..

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