noob question - Guitars, Strumsticks, & Frets

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Permalink Reply by Rand Moore on September 17, 2011 at 3:40am

Hi Mark Milam,

Yes, you can make a blues scale guitar. Where I mentioned the idea, it was in response to a link that Diane in Chicago gave us. The first part of that discussion thread is about diatonic / dulcimer fretting and the second part is about fretting the "bluescimer" or "blues scale guitar", an instrument, that like the dulcimer, uses a limited subset of the chromatic scale. In the case of the bluescimer, they restrict the notes / frets to the notes of the blues scale. I don't recall which notes or frets are included, but they are listed on the page that Diane in Chicago told us about. Here's that link again: http://www.cigarboxnation.com/group/dulciworld/forum/topics/fret-sp...  Seems that thread had moved me to making a simple 3-string CBG with interchangeable fretboard that I would simply tie-wrap on. Each fretboard had a different fret scheme, including diatonic, blues scale, and pentatonic as I recall. I did a photo comparing the fret boards. Let me find that and embed it here...

The top fretboard is the Major Pentatonic scale which turns out to be very similar to the Diatonic scale used with stick dulcimers, which is shown in the middle. The bottom fretboard is a "Bluescimer" (Blues Scale) fretboard. To do the Blues justice, I think I need to use heavier strings and perhaps a longer fretboard. The fret 0 (nut) is shown on the right. The scale length used was 50cm (a little bit less than 20"). Here a picture of my "test-bed" instrument:

This is my Sosa 3-stringer. It features a box with "cut-corner sound holes" a laminated neck with three different cut-nail fret boards: Dulcimer Diatonic, "Bluescimer" (Blues Scale), and Major Pentatonic. You can see one of the two tie-wraps that hold the fretboard in place. The other tie-wrap is up around the nut (between fret 0 and the nut).

-Rand.

 

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Permalink Reply by Rand Moore on September 17, 2011 at 4:16am

Hi again.

 

Here are the blues scale frets to use to create a "bluescimer" or "blues scale guitar":

0, 3, 5, 6, 7, 10, 12, 15, 17, 18, 19, 22 and 24.

Note that this includes the optional 6th and 18th blues scale notes/frets.

 

So, to build a blues scale guitar from a regular guitar, simply remove the following guitar frets:

1, 2, 4, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 16, 20, 21 and 23.

I don't know the best tuning, number of strings, or playing techniques, but I suspect if you

follow the Blues as taught by Shane Speal, you should be able to produce some pretty nice

Delta Blues music in a short time and with ease as compared to a standard chromatically

fretted guitar.

 

-Rand.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Roop on September 26, 2011 at 1:23pm

Thanks again to all the wonderful folks who provided such great information!! I'm getting ready to get the thang strung...

 

I do have another question that has confuzzled me... When i search for notation and sheet music information, it is mentioned fretting "the first string" but i've read over some conflicting information. When you fret "the 1st string" and strum, is it the smallest, highest-tuned string, or the lowest-tuned, heavier string? 

 

I play by ear mostly anyways, and I like playing around and enjoying the notes and sounds when i fiddle with both, but anytime i wanted to try music written and notated for the dulcimer this has gotten me a bit lost. Any clarity available here? 

 

Thanks again, CBGurus ;-)

 

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Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 26, 2011 at 2:44pm

Mike,

The first string is the smallest diameter or gauge. The 6th string is the thickest, closest to you if you are right-handed, like so:

e = 1
b = 2
G = 3
D = 4
A = 5
E = 6

Learn where the notes are for each string and fret on the fretboard. It ain't all that difficult, just a tad time consuming. When you've done this, and can successfully vizualize it in your head and repeat it to yourself 10 times, you should then be able to take dulcimer notated music, and figure it out on a 6-string fretboard.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Roop on September 26, 2011 at 3:36pm

Thanks!! it never fails, the moment i think i have it figured out, someone else will tell me its backwards hehehe.... which is why i probably never took to formal lessons ;-) Thanks, Oily!

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Permalink Reply by MBliss on September 28, 2011 at 1:36pm

Well I guess I have to play devils advocate here, and be the one to (Very respectfully) disagree with many of the responses to this!

First let me say that I play and study Diatonic fretted instruments, (As well as Chromatic) so I have nothing against them.

But I have to ask, why remove any frets? Hey, if marking them off any way you please helps you learn, terrific. But heres a couple of reasons I would suggest leaving them.

First off, its work, with little in return. It will leave open slots to deal with, you will be at risk of chipping the fingerboard upon removal and if the neck strength is marginal you might increase the chance of deflection due to string tension, as the frets wedged into those slots gives some additional strength under tension. You will also very likely need to re-level and fix the fretboard after that modification as well.

Second is musical theory related, and I dont want to confuse an already difficult subject to communicate in the discussion format, but heres some thing to consider as an example, put in a simplified manner. If you play any modern music (As in the last century......) you will want to play basic I, IV, V progressions in the key of the instrument. (If you dont yet know what this is, take my word for it, even playing by ear you will hit this obstacle.) On a Chromatic fretted instrument thats going to involve the #3 and #5 frets any way you approuch it. On a Diatonic fretted instrument guess what...... Somethings missing!

Thats not to say it cant be done, there are work arounds and ways of arranging, but sometimes it becomes a crutch, and complicates learning some basic songs. In addition, what percentage of tablature and fakes are going to be available for learning your favorite songs on a diatonic instrument? Trust me, its a challenge.

Theres a bunch of people involved in a really cool movement to play modern and contemporary music on traditional instruments, and if thats your interest, cool! I happen to be a big fan and am trying to incorporate that into my music education and experience. One thing I am learning is that because of that, a lot of players are using instruments with a few frets added back into the Diatonic. Like a 1+ (Sometimes also called a 1 1/2 fret) which corresponds to...... The number 3 Chromatic fret that you will really want if you are going to play anything that resembles the blues, country, rock and roll.........

So based on those reasons and more, I suggest.... Leave the frets alone. Mark them as needed if it helps you on your path!

 

Now on to another suggestion. The neck is too wide in my opinion for a 3 string setup. If it were me, I would consider something with 4 strings. You hinted you didnt want it to sound too much like the strumstick or a banjo, Maybe consider a string and tuning arrangement for a baritone uke, or a four string guitar or something. Or an equal spaced 4 string baritone dulcimer setup if you want to go unusual. With a new/rebuilt nut and bridge, many variations are possible. Really its up to you to decide, what kind of sound do you seek, what kind of music do you want to play. What kind of style do you want to play, (fretted/unfretted, strummed/crosspicked/fingerstyle/clawhammer, chorded/noter, etc etc)

 

I really hope that helped some how and didnt just make matters even more confusing!

Mark

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Permalink Reply by Mike Roop on September 28, 2011 at 3:22pm

Well, I picked up a set of nylon strings last night at the local overpriced music store... 

I wanted to start simply, with just three strings: A, D, & G.

Well, now I could buy the individual strings for 2.50 each or get the entire set for 10... [sarcasm] what a bargain... [/sarcasm]

So I picked up the set for 10 and got to thinking, I'll just use the EAD strings and see how it sounds... The strings were wound with wire around, it looked like, a cotton core... Is this how thicker nylon strings are supposed to be?

The D snapped early on, twice.I'm pretty sure i don't know how to tie the end of the strings properly.  Much respect to you all who have done this for so long and know what you are doing. I never imagined the strings could snap so easily.

 

Even when I did get the strings in, I could get the E to sound pretty good, but the rest had a buzzing noise to them. I even went ahead and strung the remaining G, b, & e strings and they had the same noise. I'm betting this is why a cheapo "First Act" brand guitar was available for $1.

So, switching gears, I'll try something else...

Mark Bliss, you make some good points. To answer your question, the music I'd most like to play is much like the easy-going strumming of Jack Johnson and the Hawaiian-type stuff, but I don't think I'd like the Uke as they are usually so high-strung. my singing voice has deepened over the years, which is why i'd prefer to have some lower strings to play along with me so it doesn't sound so discordant.

I'd tried to learn guitar years ago as a teenager, but it never stuck and I could never get my fingers to bend the right way to make the chords. Since then I've broke both wrists twice and I highly doubt I could make my wrists and fingers handle chords now, either.

All this points to why the strumstick idea sounded so attractive: one finger on a string while you strum; however, they are strung so high and twangy, it's pretty far off from what i would like. I enjoy bluegrass and banjo stuff sometimes, but its not what I'd prefer to play. I'd also need to be able to play some simplified songs for the kids at church, so as long as i can strums some background noise that matches the tune fairly well...

 

So my next question is: with a CBG that has 3 strings (ADG?) how does the chording on those work? 

 

I have no tools except a screwdriver & socket set and live in an apartment with no real good place to set up shop; which leaves me with buying one of Shane's CBGs or whoever has a great deal at the time. 

 

Any recommendations, Gurus?

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Permalink Reply by Ron "Oily" Sprague on September 28, 2011 at 3:52pm

Mike,

Ok, I went back and reread your first post. You found a First Act git with no strings. Without a pic it is hard to be sure, but lots of FA's use steel strings. If you've put nylon strings on a git made for steel and tried to tune it to pitch, you may find one or more strings breaking. Nylon doesn't have the same tensile strength as steel.

That said, yes, the thickest strings in a nylon set are steel wrapped around a nylon or even silk core.

String buzz: lots of reasons - neck bowed, probably not straight or true, not enough tension on a neck designed to use steel strings, uneven frets, may not have an internal truss rod to adjust it, or if it does, may be highly loose, bridge too low, you (maybe?) strung up the ADG in the wrong nut / bridge slots? Without pics, it's really hard to diagnose...

One way to approach this would be to turn your git, temporarily, into a Diddley Bow. Use just the A ( or D, or G) string, and learn to play notes on that. You can play both diatonic and chromatic scales on just 1 string. Reason I mention this approach is 1) you admitted to taking guitar lessons as a kid, which "didn't stick" and 2) your wrist injuries. Once yo've got one string down, add another. Then you can learn to play 2 string partial chords. Once you've done that awhile, move up to 3 strings. Contact CBN member Keni Lee Burgess for help with his How to play CBG series of lessons.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Roop on September 28, 2011 at 4:38pm

Thanks, Oily, we'll see where the days take me!

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