first timer here. nice guitars and nice great ideas. i have a few questions for a first timer and have looked at some various guitars. i was thinking i'd have to join a cookie tin nation but I imagine I could get some help here. I plan on a 3 string slide, no frets, no tuners guitar. a cookie tin guitar

1) I have no tuners or money for them so im using screw loops ( i think they are called) can they be tuned ? 3 strings

2) I have a rectangle tin. I noticed that the tops of tins due to sturdiness and overall design are on the back not front of the tin guitars. It seems the neck has more sturdiness and overall playing ability on the back of a cookie tin. Unfortunatley, for looks the cool design should be on the front...anyway around this??

3) my first cookie tin guitar has a pine neck. I have removed tin from one side of the tin and inserted the pine wood against the rear of the cookie tin (the end of the pine wood plank is up against the back of the tin. Is it necessary to go all the way through the cookie tin? I plan on somehow screwing the wood to the tin? (maybe near the bridge)

4) Haven't figured out how to keep strings on tail piece or behind bridge etc??. I have a few ideas but need more. I have some sturdy wood pieces for nut and bridge or some bolts.. as it will be raised for a slide.

I'd like the guitar to tune but realize without real tuning pegs might be difficult. I also plan on making a whole for 1/4 jack and putting a piezo pickup or two (never done a pickup ever but saw many videos and got some radio shack stuff). at what stage do you drill and put the pickup in? do you drill the 1/4 jack hole with a drill going in or out of the tin? put pickups on after putting neck on etc?

thanks i realize these are alot of questions and so far the videos ive seen there are alot of builders playing already built guitars. are there assembly videos in particular for the novice first time cookie tin, no real tuners..type like myself? thank you again.

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Hi Jon,

In CBN there's a discussion group called "Can Jo Consortium" which may have answers for your questions if you have time to read through their postings. In the mean time, I'll take a closer look at your questions and see if I can help to answer them.

-Rand.

With regard to your first question...

By "screw loops", I assume you mean "eye-bolt tuners". There have been many "eye-bolt tuners" built and documented on CBN, and you can research and view photos by searching the CBN website using the keywords "eye-bolt tuner" and similar word combinations. Each page on the CBN website has a search box in the upper right corner of the page.

Here's a photo of an instrument with eye-bolt tuners, so we can be sure we're talking about the same thing.


Another class of home-made tuners that you may want to consider are called "headless tuners", and CBN has a discussion group dedicated to the topic. It's called "Headless Guitar Tuners", and another source for such home-made headless tuners is "The Uncle Bob Guitar Project".

Here's a photo of a headless tuner:

Another option is to use tuning pins zither tuning pins. Here's a photo of a banjo that uses them...


So, go ahead and try building a guitar or three using any of these methods, then sell one of your guitars, and that should give you the money to buy a real set of tuners. They are not that expensive, and tend to work a lot better than home-made tuners. I recommend open geared guitar tuners. CBGitty has them for pretty cheap. I can get them cheaper, but that's because I live in China.

-Rand.

these are great photos! the eye-bolt tuner photo really helps seeing them on the side and that looks important. the headless tuner.. its hard for me to see the hardware? very original looking and fantastic.the zither tuning pegs also a great idea i'd never had thought of.. not sure where to get supplies etc? but they look cheaper than tuners and these are very well made looking instrument. the first photo with a screw as the nut I'd like to do but how to cut a bolt? thank you for the help.

On headless designs, the head-end and the tail-end of the neck are reversed. So, on a 3-stringer with a headless design, the head will have 3 holes; one for each string. Then, where you would expect to see the tail piece, your find your tuners. On home-made headless tuners they often use a long and narrow machine screw along with a wing nut, one per string, They also usually have a metal plate folded up on each end with holes for the machine screws and strings. Somehow the string is threaded through the shaft of the machine bolt, and the wing nut is used to tighten the string, perhaps along with a screw driver on the head of the machine screw. I'm thinking, but I'm not 100% sure, that they drill a hole through the shaft of the machine screw to accept the loose end of the guitar string. The metal plate's upturned ends hold either end of the machine screws in horizontal positions in-line with the strings as the strings pass over the fretboard and bridge. For more information, search CBN.

Zither pins can be ordered over the network especially from companies that sell zither musical instrument kits. Try using Google and search on "zither pins". You'll also want a "zither tuner", a screw driver-like tool with a 90 degree bend in the neck and which is designed to fit over zither pins. This tool gives you the needed leverage to tighten or loosen the zither pins to bring the string into proper tuning.

The cut bolt used as a nut in the first photo (above) was likely cut using a hack saw. When I do it, I have a 1" thick block of wood that I clamp down on the table that serves as my work bench. It has a hole cut for the exact diameter of the bolt I want to cut. I put the bolt in the hole with a nut on the free end to hold it in place while I cut off the head with a hack saw. Not too hard. I always clamp down my work piece securely to my "work bench" to prevent accidents.

-Rand.

With regard to your second question...

I also tend to build "cookie tin guitars" with the bottom as the "sound board" because of structural strength concerns. If you mount the neck to the box (using the pretty top of the cookie box as the sound board), then you must avoid cutting the folded rim of the cookie tin's lid that gives it structural strength. It can be done, usually by including a "heel" on the neck, and cutting away a notch in the neck where it would otherwise meet the rim of the cookie box top. I've included a diagram of what I'm talking about below. I'd suggest searching through CBN Pictures using the keywords "cookie box" or "cake box" and "guitar" or "banjo" as your keywords. Also, I usually take the time to draw out my design before I build it as it's easier to see design errors and correct them before they get implemented in wood and tin.

Notice the two screws that fasten the end of the neck to the "tail end" of the cookie tin. You may also want to beef up the structural support on the part of the cookie tin that receives the neck. The diagram also show the part of the neck that goes under the sound board as being cut away to avoid contact with the soundboard in order to resonate better.

-Rand.

With regard to your third question...

As the diagram above shows, it is not necessary to have a second "hole" in the cookie tin for the neck to penetrate thru the cookie tin. Doing so, is okay, but I find it easier to terminate the neck at the point where it meets the "tail end" of the cookie tin (or sound box). This is what I call a "Neck-Almost-Thru" design, as opposed to either a "Neck-Thru" design or a "Bolt-on Neck" design. I find a "Neck-Almost-Thru" design is a bit easier to implement in that you don't have to cut a second hole, and with a tin, that often means preserving the strength of the tin. However, some people say the advantage to a "Neck-Thru" design is that you can drill a hole through the end of the neck to act as your tail piece which makes the tail piece easier to build, and which takes the stress of string tension off the tin. Well, those are two good ideas, too. So, it's up to you which way you want to go. In my drawing above, when I get around to adding the tail piece, it would be screwed into the end of the neck where the 2 screws would go, so it also keeps the stress of the string tension off the tin.

-Rand.

With regard to your fourth question...

This question is about how to attach the strings to the guitar: the tail piece, nut and bridge.

On most of my instruments, I use a machine bolt and nut for the bridge and a cut bolt for the nut. The tail piece is a piece of hardwood with 3 holes spaced 3/8" to 1/2" apart (depending on the string spacing I plan to use) and drilled thru on one end. Then I drill 2 or 3 holes for the mounting screws. The tail piece is placed so that the 3 string holes just peep over the edge of the sound box (or lid in your case). With wood boxes, I put a cut nail in a specially cut grove in the corner of the sound box where the strings bend over the edge to keep the strings from cutting into the wood. Here's a diagram of what I'm talking about:

For the bridge I use a #8 or #10 machine bolt and nut, but I place it on top of a wood insert that goes between the bolt and the sound board. On cookie tin guitars, the string tension can force the bolt to indent into the tin soundboard and this piece of wood prevents this from happening by giving it a greater surface area.

The nut I use a bolt one size smaller than the bridge bolt, and I often cut a notch for it in the neck (usually using a round file) so that the strings will come over the nut about 1mm or so above the fretboard. I also tend to use a fret 0, so I don't have to be doubly certain where the nut goes to maintain the scale length relative to the desired bridge location. Scale length is an important dimension as it governs where the fret locations will be (use a fret calculator to calculate, based on scale length which is the distance between nut (or fret 0) and the bridge).

You can also build the nut and bridge from extra hard wood like oak, or carve them from bone, or from other strong material. There are lots of discussions on this topic on CBN.

-Rand.

Your final question is about how to mount a piezo in a cookie tin guitar, including how to drill the hole dor the 1/4" phono jack.

First, a piezo is actually too sensitive to use without some kind of isolation to keep it from picking up what I call the "fingering and handling noise". Without proper isolation, the piezo will pickup the noise of your left hand stopping the string at various fret locations up and down the neck, and it will pickup sounds as you are handling the instrument in other ways. So, to isolate the piezo, what I and others do is to use a bottle cap and fill it half full of hot glue, letting it pool to form a flat surface. Then I place in the piezo, making sure the piezo does not touch the sides of the bottle cap. Then, I fill the remaining void in the bottle cap with more hot glue, covering up the piezo completely. I then hot glue the bottle cap to the underside of the sound board.

The 1/4" phono jack wants to be mounted on a flat surface. So, if you are using a round cookie tin, mounting the jack on the sound board (lid or bottom of tin) is best. Since you are using tin boxes, whatever flat side you want can be used. I usually use the tail-piece side of the box, or the "bottom" side, as you would hold the guitar when you play it. I generally avoid placing the jack on the soundboard as it can interfere with the sound (inhibits vibration), at least theoretically. When I drill the hole, I make sure there is wood supporting the side being drilled so that the drill has something to dig into once it has cut through the tin. This will result in a cleaner cut, and with wooden sound boxes, it will prevent splintering the opposite edge of the hole.

Once the jack has been mounted, you can solder the wires connecting it to the piezo and perhaps "pot" (potentiometer or variable resistor) which acts as a volume control. This is entirely optional, as the amplifier also normally has volume controls. Usually, the last thing I do is hot glue the piezo/bottle cap assembly to the sound board, as having it free makes soldering easier.

Piezo pickups is a popular topic on CBN, so you may want to do some extra research on the topic. In my opinion, there is enough to learn on your first several instruments, and that piezo is something you should probably put off to a later build. Things like headstock design, neck design, neck to sound box attachment, nut-bridge-tail piece issues, and fretting the neck are more pressing topics. You can always add a piezo later if you can easily open your sound box.

Good luck with your build.

-Rand.

I like the idea of a simple tailpiece like this one you described. I think a small washer would be good to give the string support on the back of the tailpiece..
Rand , which side of the piezo faces down in the bottle cap and which side faces up towards strings when ready to place on guitar. For instance Ceramic side up or down in bottle cap etc. ceramic up or down when placing in guitar...

-Rand.

These are great tips and so far the issues of fretboard size, tuner issues and general overall guitar build are fairly complex. I was able to complete a three string square tin box-neck thru and with the help of your photo of the eye-bolt tuners. Issues are nut (made of hard driftwood) and bridge placement. Mainly the nut. Theres alot of math I'm really bad at but the basic idea great. The guitarish contraption I made can only be used with a slide and bridge and nut are not permanently stabilized yet. Tuning and learning how to just wind a string in tune with eye-bolt a challenge but I accomplished a temporary tune. Sounds like a slide bango.
I really like your idea of bolts as nut and bridge and would like to know how you cut the tops off? Also string guides possiblly screws would help I think to keep the strings for in place. Some sort of string guide one of the major flaws in my first attempt. Also the pine seems a bit frail to work with. So all in all my next attempt at this with follow a lot more of the things you've mentioned and pictures you provided ..so thanks a lot. It's seems like each instrument will be a different challenge. I'm glad I got something going. I'm very deficit on the neck calculator stuff but hopefully will get better. Any more tips on eye-bolt winding and placement very appreciated.

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